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darth254

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UK being a naval and economic powerhouse just seemed to have such an underwhelming performance in the World Wars. I guess in WW2 you can make at least make a strong case they showed awesome grit for stomaching it out alone against Nazi Germany until the Nazis invaded the USSR, but still......what were the main factors for such poor showing?
 
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UK being a naval and economic powerhouse just seemed to have such an underwhelming performance in the World Wars. I guess in WW2 you can make at least make a strong case they showed awesome grit for stomaching it out alone against Nazi Germany until the Nazis invaded the USSR, but still......what were the main factors for such poor showing?

You probably just angered a lot of Britbongs.....

As to your question, I would say a lack of tea and crumpets :p
 
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UK being a naval and economic powerhouse just seemed to have such an underwhelming performance in the World Wars. I guess in WW2 you can make at least make a strong case they showed awesome grit for stomaching it out alone against Nazi Germany until the Nazis invaded the USSR, but still......what were the main factors for such poor showing?
"Impotence" I'd like to see you strolling up Sword Beach playing the bagpipes whilst your mates around you are slaughtered by German machine gun fire and blown apart by explosives.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ll-Millin--D-Day-piper-Nazis-thought-mad.html
 
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If that you mean the lack of ground and air forces, the the cause is simple: A lack of a large enough population to provide the necessary man power.
 
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You probably just angered a lot of Britbongs.....

As to your question, I would say a lack of tea and crumpets :p
Several things:
1) Firstly, the UK has pretty much always been a second-class land power. Sorry, but if you look at history, it's very much the case. The English/British strategy for essentially every war since the Hundred Years War has been "find continental ally [or preferably allies] to provide the army." Even most famous British land victories (e.g. Waterloo) have usually been won by an army made up largely of non-Brits. Wars featuring Britain alone versus a peer power(s) have generally been rare; the most notable is probably the American Revolution (against France, Spain, the Netherlands and the US), and we all know how that turned out (and it was also notable for the British use of foreign mercenaries to supplement their army). So it's not like some sort of strange aberration.

2) This comes down to a related issue: the British generally haven't prioritized their armies in the same way as their continental rivals, both in terms of numbers and doctrine. You see this with WWI, where the initial BEF in 1914 was ~150,000 soldiers (significantly fewer than the Belgian Army managed to field, much less nations like France or Germany). Most of the soldiers who fought in the Somme and later battles were fresh recruits who didn't start training until after the war had already begun.

3) There are only so many Brits in the world, and they have only so much money. India offered plenty of manpower, but for political reasons the UK was obviously very reluctant to tap it to the same extent. Especially after WWI, the UK was nearly bankrupt, and couldn't afford to maintain both a first-class army and a first-class navy. As an island nation with a solid alliance with France (a nation with a large army) and colonial holdings all over the world, they chose the navy (and even then signed the Washington Treaty to force everyone to cut down their construction and save money).

None of this is to denigrate the average British person, or the British soldier, anymore than e.g. the Russian performance early in Barbarossa, or the American performance at Pearl Harbor says anything about the average Russian or American.

EDIT: I'd further add that most of these factors also apply to the US, which had a similar pre-WWII tradition of not emphasizing the army.
 
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this isn't an insult of British soldiers. it's a matter of the UK underachieving for as powerful as it was (or so thought to be).
British soldiers achieve objectives. You should read up on some of the feats undertaken in North Africa, South East Asia and the Meditterenean.

Keep in mind WW1 heavily affected the UK's performance in WW2.
 
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I'd add to Rubidium's comments by saying that Britain (and the US) went into WW1 with virtually no army by continental standards. It took them a long time and a lot of money to develop the national-service army, the armaments industries and the rest of the infrastructure needed by a modern army.

What's more inexplicable to me is the failure of the French to develop a workable offensive doctrine or decide (as the numerical inferiors) to stand on the defensive.
 
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What's more inexplicable to me is the failure of the French to develop a workable offensive doctrine or decide (as the numerical inferiors) to stand on the defensive.
"Mind over Matter". Elan and all that. France leadership was trapped into "regain Alsace at all costs" thinking, and hence they had to attack - political suicide otherwise.
 
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Yes, I agree - I think the 'necessity' of winning convinced them that, since they needed to win and deserved to win it would therefore happen. I just can't quite wrap my head around how much they had to ignore or overlook to believe it was possible to go on the offensive and win. Perhaps I'm the victim of too much hindsight.
 

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I'd add to Rubidium's comments by saying that Britain (and the US) went into WW1 with virtually no army by continental standards. It took them a long time and a lot of money to develop the national-service army, the armaments industries and the rest of the infrastructure needed by a modern army.

What's more inexplicable to me is the failure of the French to develop a workable offensive doctrine or decide (as the numerical inferiors) to stand on the defensive.

I would hardly say the US took a lot of time to mobilize in WW1. 4.5 million men in little more than a year, and a professional army born and raised in the offensives of St. Mihiel and the Meuse-Argonne in the closing 2 months of the war. I would say that is fairly impressive.
 
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I would hardly say the US took a lot of time to mobilize in WW1. 4.5 million men in little more than a year, and a professional army born and raised in the offensives of St. Mihiel and the Meuse-Argonne in the closing 2 months of the war. I would say that is fairly impressive.
21 month, not a year. And its not like US had to fight a first-rate opponent alone - it enjoyed a clear superiority, was launching offensives in what the other side considered secondary regions, and vast majority of equipment it used came from foreign sources (105mm and 155mm don't add up with inches).
 
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If that you mean the lack of ground and air forces, the the cause is simple: A lack of a large enough population to provide the necessary man power.

To be fair, the British Empire + Commonwealth had more than 500 million population. Which is more than Soviet Union and Nazi Germany Combined at this time.
 
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To be fair, the British Empire + Commonwealth had more than 500 million population. Which is more than Soviet Union and Nazi Germany Combined at this time.
How many of them lived in India? How many Indians served? 400 million, and 1.25 million. There goes 80% of your "500 million population". By your reckoning, UK should have just armed Indians, while keeping englishmen working in the factories - that would have supplied more weapons to the army and all. Yet they did not do it. Must have been a reason. Like unreliability of Indians or something.
 
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teamgene

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US had 4.7 inch gun but don't know if any reached France. To my knowledge all the artillery regiments used French guns. But this is getting off topic.
 
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Director

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Jongmaster, the US actually began preparing for war in 1916, if not earlier. But even when war was declared and large numbers of men available, they pretty much had to use French and British guns, equipment and ammunition - the US reputation for being the 'arsenal of democracy' is deserved for WW2 but not, I think, for WW1. Even when the US units were committed to the front lines they were so raw and untrained that no-one in the Allied or German High Commands expected anything much from them.

In the timespan of WW1, six months is a long time to have to hold out, waiting for reinforcements.

One of the wisest things the US (and UK) did between the wars was to look at how to switch industrial production to war materiel more quickly, how to efficiently draft and train large numbers, and to set a ballpark figure for how many men they could draft without affecting industrial production. So they did learn a lot, but it still takes six months to a year to make a decent soldier out of a raw recruit.
 
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shri

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If that you mean the lack of ground and air forces, the the cause is simple: A lack of a large enough population to provide the necessary man power.

Not really, in fact the French Population and British Population in the 20th century are nearly equal, so this fact cannot be glossed over when making that sweeping statement.
 
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shri

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How many of them lived in India? How many Indians served? 400 million, and 1.25 million. There goes 80% of your "500 million population". By your reckoning, UK should have just armed Indians, while keeping englishmen working in the factories - that would have supplied more weapons to the army and all. Yet they did not do it. Must have been a reason. Like unreliability of Indians or something.

Well, they had once done that in the aftermath of the First Afghan War and rightfully reaped "1857", anyway there was "0" incentive for the Indians to die for their British Masters, or probably as much as the "Blacks had" to die for the "South in ACW".
 

Katarian

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The UK was hardly impotent in WWII, but it certainly wasn't as strong as it seemed they should be. WWI was basically the height of power of the British Empire and fighting that war had a massive effect on the economy which had a massive knock on effect on the strength of the armed forces at the start of WW2. There was also the almost traditional problem for the British Army of learning the wrong lessons and preparing to fight the last war the fought rather then the next. Except for RAF fighter command almost every area of the British military was "wrong" at the outbreak of the war.

I would hardly say the US took a lot of time to mobilize in WW1. 4.5 million men in little more than a year, and a professional army born and raised in the offensives of St. Mihiel and the Meuse-Argonne in the closing 2 months of the war. I would say that is fairly impressive.

If the UK and/or France had taken as long to mobilise as the US Germany would have won WWI. The US forces did well once they got into action (though they ignored almost everything the British the French had learned assuming they knew better) and shortened the war but only one side could realistically win by the time by the time they were finally ready to actually fight.
 
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