Ugro-Baltic culture

[Ciccillo Rre]

The Ugro-Baltic culture is in cultures.txt, can be chosen from the Ruler Designer IIRC, and is the culture of some isolated characters in the middle of Russia, approximately in the area of present Mordovia. However, there are no provinces to which this culture is attached.

What does this culture represent? Is it a leftover of some kind? Or perhaps a placeholder for Mordvins? I don't understand why this culture is in while others, say Berber and Volga Bulgar, are not.

 

[theKing1988]

The Ugro-Baltic culture is in cultures.txt, can be chosen from the Ruler Designer IIRC, and is the culture of some isolated characters in the middle of Russia, approximately in the area of present Mordovia. However, there are no provinces to which this culture is attached.

What does this culture represent? Is it a leftover of some kind? Or perhaps a placeholder for Mordvins? I don't understand why this culture is in while others, say Berber and Volga Bulgar, are not.

As far as i'm aware modern day Finns and Estonians are referred to as Ugric peoples, so maybe you should look in that direction.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I never even realized no provinces had Ugric culture. Good find, CR, and I assume it's for the Mordvins, yeah. Probably couldn't hurt to give their provinces that culture for as long as they hold them, though. Perhaps mention this in the bug forum? I'd be very surprised if it was WAD that there's a culture in the game (and some characters have it) but with no provinces using it. It's bound to die out very quickly.

Volga Bulgar would be nice.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Since the Mordvins are no where near the Baltic, I don't think that this is supposed to be their culture.

 

[Peuri]

As far as i'm aware modern day Finns and Estonians are referred to as Ugric peoples, so maybe you should look in that direction.

I don't think so. Finns and Estonians are Fenno-Ugric peoples, but they are not Ugric peoples. They are Finnio-Permic, specifically Finnic peoples. Hungarians for example are an Ugric people.

Edit: Not that I know a lot about the subject apart from reading a few wikipedia articles some time ago.

 

[theKing1988]

I don't think so. Finns and Estonians are Fenno-Ugric peoples, but they are not Ugric peoples. They are Finnio-Permic, specifically Finnic peoples. Hungarians for example are an Ugric people.

Edit: Not that I know a lot about the subject apart from reading a few wikipedia articles some time ago.

My bad, if you say so, i totally believe you, given that you are Finnish .

 

[Sleight of Hand]

The Finns are a Finno-Ugric people, though doubtless they fall into more specific categories as well. But they are Ugric, like the Magyars.

 

[Peuri]

The Finns are a Finno-Ugric people, though doubtless they fall into more specific categories as well. But they are Ugric, like the Magyars.

Ugric and Finnic peoples are seperate subgroups of Finno-Ugric peoples. According to this. So I would reinstate that Finns are Finno-Ugric, but not Ugric. But this is off topic.

Weren't Estonian counties Baltic Ugric in 1.0 atleast? I haven't checked the newest patch if that has changed.

 

[Calgacus]

If I remember correctly, Ugric-Baltic was clearly used for 'Estonian' in CK1. Plausibly it was chosen as being 'less anachronistic', though of course Estonian is 'Finnic' rather than 'Ugric'.

 

[leksu]

How about just creating an Estonian culture in the Finno-Ugric group?

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

How about just creating an Estonian culture in the Finno-Ugric group?

This would still leave open the issue of what to do with those Finno-Ugric characters in the middle of Russia.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I'm surprised I never noticed this.

I never even realized no provinces had Ugric culture. Good find, CR, and I assume it's for the Mordvins, yeah. Probably couldn't hurt to give their provinces that culture for as long as they hold them, though. Perhaps mention this in the bug forum? I'd be very surprised if it was WAD that there's a culture in the game (and some characters have it) but with no provinces using it. It's bound to die out very quickly.

Volga Bulgar would be nice.

I think it's probably meant to be Estonian into Livonia - I feel like the Lettigalians and Finns have no much lording over that area, anyways. You know, I think I might just add this to CPR since it's in vanilla PI anyways so it's justifiable.

 

[Isaios]

This would still leave open the issue of what to do with those Finno-Ugric characters in the middle of Russia.

From what I can recall of migration history (never my strength unfortunately), there's at least some enclaves of Finno-Ugrics in Russia. Right around the borders of Siberia as I recall. From what I recall (and I failed to find the maps I remember with a quick search), they were NOT transported there by the Soviets, rather having been part of the Finno-Ugric migration and just stopped half-way.

 

[hjarg]

From Wiki: "The Finno-Ugric peoples are any of several peoples of Europe who speak languages of the Finno-Ugric language family, such as the Finns, Estonians, Mordvins, and Hungarians.[1] Their languages are part of the Uralic language family and are not related to Indo-European languages such as Germanic, Slavic, and Romance."

And yes, there are Finno-Ugric people in Siberia. Komi, Mansi, Mari etc.

 

[Isaios]

And yes, there are Finno-Ugric people in Siberia. Komi, Mansi, Mari etc.

Of course, but not the ones I was thinking of They didn't migrate west (to any great extent). I should have been more clear and said that there should be an enclave of a Finnic group in the same area. It's a linguistically and ethnically interesting outlier. I'll see if I can track them down. I just need to remember where those books are. >_>

I also recall there being a divergent view about which direction they actually migrated. Eh, not important.

I'd just delete those characters myself, the culture as well. I can't see as it serves any useful purpose.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

From Wiki: "The Finno-Ugric peoples are any of several peoples of Europe who speak languages of the Finno-Ugric language family, such as the Finns, Estonians, Mordvins, and Hungarians.[1] Their languages are part of the Uralic language family and are not related to Indo-European languages such as Germanic, Slavic, and Romance."

And yes, there are Finno-Ugric people in Siberia. Komi, Mansi, Mari etc.

So why don't they get provinces, or a more clear-cut name?

 

[Isaios]

Chances are good that they're just code artifacts. Bits of code that were just edited out rather than purged. You see the same thing in loads of the history files.

 

[hjarg]

So why don't they get provinces, or a more clear-cut name?

For they live mostly right in the area where CK map ends.

Isaios, actually, most of the Siberian Fenno-Ugric people are considered to be of Finnic language group. Ugric part is Hunarian and other some other Uralic people. Of course, it is disputed, but basically, Fenno-part covers western part of Siberia, Ugric part eastern part. Well, western part of western Siberia and eastern part of Western Siberia.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

I think there are definitely provinces in game which should have Volga Finnic majorities in this time period, including in areas where there would be next to no foreign (in this case Russian) cultural domination which is the reasoning behind excluding other minor groups such as the Albanians.

However, I could have sworn that this is already included in game. Or are all those Suomenusko provinces in what is now Russia culturally Russian or Turkic?

 

[Isaios]

Isaios, actually, most of the Siberian Fenno-Ugric people are considered to be of Finnic language group. Ugric part is Hunarian and other some other Uralic people. Of course, it is disputed, but basically, Fenno-part covers western part of Siberia, Ugric part eastern part. Well, western part of western Siberia and eastern part of Western Siberia.

I tracked down what I was thinking about. The old discussion about WHEN the linguistic group appeared in Europe, and from whence. Essentially when the Migration Theory was disputed. This is, as I said, not a strength of mine I was remembering the genetic maps, not the ethno-linguistic ones.

I think there are definitely provinces in game which should have Volga Finnic majorities in this time period, including in areas where there would be next to no foreign (in this case Russian) cultural domination which is the reasoning behind excluding other minor groups such as the Albanians.

However, I could have sworn that this is already included in game. Or are all those Suomenusko provinces in what is now Russia culturally Russian or Turkic?

Well, most of the North-Eastern map is covered in Komi counties, not Ugricbaltic. It's that latter part that seems to be an artifact. But the not-Russian, not-Altaic regions are represented.