U-Boot vs Fleet bug?

[Majorball]

Well, yes, as I said, a surprise atatck on the UBoots by the carrier planes is plausible, but after that every UBoot commander would immediately issue an alarm dive, and than all the planes could attack would be empty ocean

And planes have no technology to spot a submerged UBoot, it simply cant be done with WW2 technology, thats why a carrier fleet should be unable to hold the UBoots at 140km distance.

To find them the DDs would than have to close in on the last spotted position and start hunting the UBoots with sonar, and once spotted with depth charges.

But the way it is right now doesnt make sense, the UBoots should probably beeing unable to acually attack the main fleet because they wouldn't make it past the DDs and their sonar, but on the other hand the fleet should be unable to pin down the UBoots at such a far distance either.

You just retreat after 4 hours no damage done.....Apart from air attack during the retreat. Its great that subs cant kill Surface ships like they use to. Much more realistic.

 

[Mork]

Thats the distance a UBoot can travel submerged, after that they had to reemerge to recharge their batteries, but its not the time they can stay submerged, thats only limited by the oxygen they had available. If you want to speak about the film Das Boot, remember when they were sunk, ditched on the sea ground and had to repair their UBoot? That certainly took days to accomplish.

But lets just stick to the 64 miles range submerged, thats 115km, thats a 230x230 km area they could be in after they traveled that long, or roughly 53.000 square kilometers. You aren't going to tell me that a few planes from a carrier could observe such a huge area, or?

Firstly, it wasn't "a few planes", secondly, of course they would try. We are talking about carriers here, with many planes, against not one, but many, many subs.

It wasn't until the introduction of the snorkel that the Germans where able to make actual subs, not just surface ships that could submerge for a couple of hours. You see, the range certainly has something todo with how long they could stay under, there is much more to life under the water than just oxygen, ventilation for example is needed, or else the men would die of CO2 toxication.
The reason modern subs can be under for so long is that they reprocess the air, and produce new oxygen from sea water.
Staying under for days...

 

[unmerged(54975)]

People i have the answer
subs are good for one thing cannon fodder!!!
use them to engage the RN in one province while the invasion fleet goes through another and the battle will last for ages allowing you to get there and back.

 

[unmerged(55492)]

But lets just stick to the 64 miles range submerged, thats 115km, thats a 230x230 km area they could be in after they traveled that long, or roughly 53.000 square kilometers. You aren't going to tell me that a few planes from a carrier could observe such a huge area, or?

When the sub has run that distance, their batteries are dead. After that it's back to the surface and recharging batteries, which means hours in plain sight. If you submerge again immediately, the boat won't move anywhere. Those planes probably have a good idea how far the boat might have gone, and can search that area. The visibility from an aircraft is very good (you can see very far). Just a few planes can easily cover the area mentioned
---> The U-boat is screwed.

 

[Spruce]

CV's have reconnaissance planes and will help in spotting the subs - destroyers from the CV's main body will be dispatched to brutalise the poor subs. That's the reality,

in Doomsday - the combat model is somewhat more simple - the CV is attacking the subs and the subs take an enormous amount of damage - destroyers stay close to the CV.

Practical spoken - a CV that spots a sub fleet should prevent those subs from closing in to attack the capital ships - as Doomsdagy combat model does. The only difference is that the destroyers remain close to the CV and the CV actually does the sub hunting - which is perhaps somewhat ahistorical.

Now subs have been put where they should be - - the only minor complaint that one could have is that a sub flotilla is still handled as "a single body". So if the CV spots the sub fleet - ALL subs are spotted and none can range in to the proximity of the surface ships. Everybody knows that subs worked in wolf packs and were in fact all around the place. I think there could be simple solutions to model this situation - like have a small chance depending on sub positioning doctrines + leader skill that a sub can fire to the enemey fleet even if they main body is at large distance. So like a dice roll and when lucky the sub can fire during that round.

So f.e. a CV fleet with 2 CA, 2 CL and 3 DD catches a 4 sub flotilla fleet. The subs are at long range and take beating, depending on the sub positioning doctrines they get a small chance during each combat round to fire - nevertheless they are out of range. A "yellow" turret may symbolise this ...

but overall I'm very happy with the current naval combat system !

 

[Panzerotto]

When the sub has run that distance, their batteries are dead. After that it's back to the surface and recharging batteries, which means hours in plain sight. If you submerge again immediately, the boat won't move anywhere. Those planes probably have a good idea how far the boat might have gone, and can search that area. The visibility from an aircraft is very good (you can see very far). Just a few planes can easily cover the area mentioned
---> The U-boat is screwed.

maybe they first dive up when it is dark?
The problem for the subs was that they cant close up to the convoys undetected while planes patroled the area. when they are spottet by planes even with a emergency dive they need at least 1min. to get underwater and that 60sec. were the time the planes could attack the subs. Once the sub has dived its away... but also the convoy is away and unreachable for the sub. And while "your" planes search hours for the dived sub, 3 others from the other direction sink half of your convoy...

But back to topic...
Remeber the topic I started before doomsday came out? About sub super stacks? At that time I said that the naval combat system needs a total rework for subs and that simply lower their stats will make them just cannon fodder for large surface fleets. The result is as much "realistic" as mega submarine fleets whipe out the entire homefleet in one fight without loosing one boat. We wont get ANY nearly realistic result as long as subs are handled like small destroyers. I think its the stony road naval mod who has the right beginning by setting the max org for subs to 1 but strongly increase their offensive stats while decreasing their defense. So they will dissengage after their first shot but will deal serious damage with it while get also easy damaged by the escorts.
But the problem stays that 30 flottillas ob subs are handled as if they where sailing toghether in ine formation and that allways all subs attack at once.

Another point is that with the 1944 sub tech (german Typ XXI) you have a real fleet killer sub. Submerged to fast for the enemy sonar at this time and outfitted with snorchel and the first seeking torpedoes. IRL the Typ XXI came to late to be effective and the seeking torpedoes weren't very effective but HoI is also a "what if" game. What if germany would have won the war augainst the SU and started in 1943 or 44 to build masses of Typ XXI subs and improved torpedoes to use them against allied convoys and warship fleets? It would have been the 3rd happy time for the german subs until the allies had developed an effective counter messure.
And when you first look at 1945+ doomsday scenario with the first nuclear subs that the naval battle system is totaly useless.

At least for game balancing reasons it should be possible for a german/SU player to gain controll of the seas by a sub only fleet without using masses of naval bombers...

Right now I work on a few additional post "advanced sub warfare" techs to make subs a real threat for large CV fleets later in the game whithout making them UBER...

 

[Helshad]

Well, subwar was somewhat complex... However... The outcome in the subwar between allied and germany was very onesided... The subs lost. Extreme losses for the german.

The begining of war they where very effective due to the lack of sub hunting systems but after 41 the tide turned fast... They hardly did any real damage after 42. Atleast none that really affected the allies. Sure they got lucky sometimes a sunk a few ships. But once the amerikan started their hunter/killer groups the subs days where numbered.

It wasnt until early 45 (before the ending) the germans launched a sub that could be submerged for weeks. Non atomic but still able to stay under for a long time.. those where a real threat... but as so many other things the germans came up with it was to few to late.. very late...


I think in DD it should be reflected by the fact that they where good the first years... 38-41. Simply by the fact that the allies didnt have the tools to hunt them or the ideas to handle convoys. After that the superior technology rendered them useless for most of the war.

Perhaps the whole sub system should be changed?? Why have them as divisions?? Why not use them as transports? Just produce subs and tell how many you wanna send out. How many are in ports in repairs and so on. Should be simple enough. Then make a calculator how much they could reasnbly sink each month with current technology/countermeasures and so on. The more subs, the better technology the better results.

Well, its an idea... I just have a hard time seeing subs as a tactical unit like ships in general.

Also there should be a possiblility to change the tactics subs should use from time to time. In the start of the war wolfpacks where very good and effective. Later on they where useless due to countermeasures so single subs did more random damage and so on.

This way we can have more realism and easier handling... I think... Unless I am babling to much so noone understand anything I say... :rofl:

 

[unmerged(41044)]

Appears to be a lot of confusion in this thread what subs are for, and what they are capable of.

Subs in WWII were a strategic resource intended for action against enemy merchantmen. Their primary goal was to cut enemy trade routes. Their effectiveness in this role was governed by technology, doctrine and cryptology.

*Very rarely* a single sub would get into a position where it could launch a surprise attack against a surface fleet asset - CA,BB or CV are the only worthwhile targets. A 'wolf-pack', however large, never makes an attempt on a fleet of warships - it's not just suicidal, it's impossible due to the disparity in speeds.

The examples so far mentioned are all cases where a surface fleet has found a wolfpack - unsurprisingly the fleet does not close, but stands off and reduces the subs with air. Realistically destroyers would be detached to maintain contact with the subs with sonar, however that's not possible to model strategically - anyway the damage all goes one-way in that situation. If you're a wolf-pack found by a surface fleet with ASW assets and you fail to break contact, you're history.

Modern hunter-killer subs have a very diferent role and set of capabilities - you cannot judge one by the other.

 

[Helshad]

Appears to be a lot of confusion in this thread what subs are for, and what they are capable of.

Subs in WWII were a strategic resource intended for action against enemy merchantmen. Their primary goal was to cut enemy trade routes. Their effectiveness in this role was governed by technology, doctrine and cryptology.

*Very rarely* a single sub would get into a position where it could launch a surprise attack against a surface fleet asset - CA,BB or CV are the only worthwhile targets. A 'wolf-pack', however large, never makes an attempt on a fleet of warships - it's not just suicidal, it's impossible due to the disparity in speeds.

The examples so far mentioned are all cases where a surface fleet has found a wolfpack - unsurprisingly the fleet does not close, but stands off and reduces the subs with air. Realistically destroyers would be detached to maintain contact with the subs with sonar, however that's not possible to model strategically - anyway the damage all goes one-way in that situation. If you're a wolf-pack found by a surface fleet with ASW assets and you fail to break contact, you're history.

Modern hunter-killer subs have a very diferent role and set of capabilities - you cannot judge one by the other.

Exactly... Subs are not meant to attack surface fleets... (atleast not during WWII). Thats why I suggested a rework of how to deal with subs... More like we deal with convoys. Tell them what shiproutes to hunt and add a nr of subs to do it. Simulate damage due to attacks/counterattacks and so on. Letting tech-level and experiance of the crews influence the outcome. Also weather etc etc.

Then perhaps when the new types arrive later on 45 and forward they could be used as tactical assets too...

Well, its an idea... Other than that we could keep the current system but atleast allow the subs to sneak away (randomly) after being spotted by a fleet. They do get away unscaved sometimes...

For those who havnt seen "DAS BOOT" I suggest you watch it. Life on a sub during WWII is like being in hell...

 

[Panzerotto]

The main reason that subs were onla "rarely" able to attack large surface fleets was that not many of those fleets were around to find. It a difference between weekly operating convoys were you know wer they are traveling and surface fleets on combat patrol.
As you said the german subs were used as convoy raiders cause it was and still is more effective than to hunt the warships cause you would need large amounts of subs to find the fleets. In the mediteranian there are some examples for subs who were on convoy raiding around malta sucessfully attacked surface fleets LINK.

The other point you mentioned is that a wolfpack could never close to a surface fleet cause they are to fast? Sure a 20ktn fleet is for a 7ktn submerged sub a problem, but when one sub of a wolfpack spotted the fleet the others try to reach a position where they can lay down and wait for the surface fleet. That is the meaning of the wolfpack tactic. And there is no "keeping distance" to a wolfpack cause a wolfpack is not on one place its virtually everywhere in their patrol zone. So you can find a SUB but no Wolfpack.
And the destroyers you want to dispatch to hunt the suby detected by planes are nonesens. The detection abilitys by destroyers where extremly limited in range at this time. In the time the destroyer would reach the last spotted position of the sub it would be miles away so it would be pure luck.
Subs were at every time a large threat for surface fleets and it was at every time possible for a sub to sneek through the ASW cover when they a) at least meet a surface fleet b) were in position to even close in.
An additional point is that and speeds above 10ktn the pasive and aktive sonar of the 40s gets more or less useless so you can forget that a destroyer making 20ktn notice a sub passing at slow speed right under it. But that doesnt also mean that subs had a easy job...

But I'm getting away... IRL Subs were better for convoy raiding as for sending them out to find and sink surface fleets, agreed. But in the game convoy raiding is by far not as effective as IRL. Not cause they can't sink enough ships, it cause the MEGA Stockpiles build up in the pre war time.

And Subs are no cannonfooder for surface fleets. You can see what could happen when a wolfpack meets a surface fleet in the link above.

 

[unmerged(55492)]

Maybe the nuclear submarine of HoI2 should be better at attacking warships. It could probably be considered almost as a modern attack sub. A modern sub can stay submerged for weeks or months, plus their speed is equal to or greater than the speed of almost any surface vessel, giving them whole new capabilities.

 

[Panzerotto]

Well, its an idea... Other than that we could keep the current system but atleast allow the subs to sneak away (randomly) after being spotted by a fleet. They do get away unscaved sometimes...

You are right, at least its still a computer game and we will never have 100% relism and I think nobody realy wants 100%

 

[unmerged(56080)]

Well, subwar was somewhat complex... However... The outcome in the subwar between allied and germany was very onesided... The subs lost. Extreme losses for the german.

The begining of war they where very effective due to the lack of sub hunting systems but after 41 the tide turned fast... They hardly did any real damage after 42. Atleast none that really affected the allies. Sure they got lucky sometimes a sunk a few ships. But once the amerikan started their hunter/killer groups the subs days where numbered.

It wasnt until early 45 (before the ending) the germans launched a sub that could be submerged for weeks. Non atomic but still able to stay under for a long time.. those where a real threat... but as so many other things the germans came up with it was to few to late.. very late...


I think in DD it should be reflected by the fact that they where good the first years... 38-41. Simply by the fact that the allies didnt have the tools to hunt them or the ideas to handle convoys. After that the superior technology rendered them useless for most of the war.

Perhaps the whole sub system should be changed?? Why have them as divisions?? Why not use them as transports? Just produce subs and tell how many you wanna send out. How many are in ports in repairs and so on. Should be simple enough. Then make a calculator how much they could reasnbly sink each month with current technology/countermeasures and so on. The more subs, the better technology the better results.

Well, its an idea... I just have a hard time seeing subs as a tactical unit like ships in general.

Also there should be a possiblility to change the tactics subs should use from time to time. In the start of the war wolfpacks where very good and effective. Later on they where useless due to countermeasures so single subs did more random damage and so on.

This way we can have more realism and easier handling... I think... Unless I am babling to much so noone understand anything I say... :rofl:

Actually what killed the subs was ULTRA/ENIGMA ..the allies found their rendezvous points and supply ships, and decimated them.

 

[Panzerotto]

Actually what killed the subs was ULTRA/ENIGMA ..the allies found their rendezvous points and supply ships, and decimated them.

also a good point

 

[Paul_M]

The last poster has it completely correct. The spike in the effectiveness of submarines in late 41-early 42 was due to Donitz adding a 5th wheel to the Enigma machines used by submarines, and the drop in effectiveness in submarines was due to the British capturing a sub in early 42 and more importantly capturing its enigma. Once they worked out how to decode again (mid 42) U-boat losses climbed and merchant losses dropped.

This had nothing to do with better DDs/AWS/Sonar etc but simply that again they could vector in ASW groups and coastal patrol aircraft on the subs and convoys away from them. The period late 41 till early 42 showed what the subs were capable of and that was a catastrophy for the British.

In the game mechanics there must be a bug because BBs have no ASW capability so there is no way a BB can shoot at a submarine. Anti-submarine strength is 0. So at range 30+ km the subs should take no damage.

The game needs a "ASW range" and the submarines should be able to evade, at night it would be hard to stop the submarine from disengaging. The detection chance should be checked every hour of combat. Keeping the submarine engaged should be very hard.

Also CV detection ranges should be much shorter than the air strike range since the chance of detecting the submarine is fairly limited.

 

[unmerged(56550)]

This is my idea of how sub warfare vs surface fleets should go.

First the innitiative, who spots whom first. If the surface fleet spots the subs, its should be an entirely ASW matter, the subs wouldn't / can't try to attack the fleet but would instead just trying to get away while the ASW capable ships from the fleet hunt them. The DDs should loose orginaziatin as a result of them dropping deepth charges until they run out (org=0) and the subs simply try to retreat without beeing destroyed. There should always beeing a chance for a single sub to escape even while some other ones are still hunted, so those who got away should be grayed out for the duration of the battle or something. A single DD cant hunt 6 Subs at the same time for example.

If the subs spot the fleet first, it should be a commanders decision whether he wants to try an attack, if there are a lot of jucy easy targets without protection (CVs, BBs without many destroyers) they would probably try an attack, otherwise they would probably just sail away, avoiding contact.

If they attack, it'll be a surprise attack (coming in submerged, so only a very small chance for the fleet now to spot the subs, a periscope in the ocean is very hard to spot, the Subs should have a very good positioning in %), so they should be able to close in on ideal distance and than unload 4-5, maybe 8-10 shots each in a very quick succession (the torpedos launched), than it would be ASW again, the alerted ASW vessels from the fleet would start hunting the subs.

That would require some specific ASW code, but Sub hunting is something else than two surface fleets battleing it out with big guns. And the game should reflect that, which it doesn't at the moment.

 

[Panzerotto]

This is my idea of how sub warfare vs surface fleets should go.

First the innitiative, who spots whom first. If the surface fleet spots the subs, its should be an entirely ASW matter, the subs wouldn't / can't try to attack the fleet but would instead just trying to get away while the ASW capable ships from the fleet hunt them. The DDs should loose orginaziatin as a result of them dropping deepth charges until they run out (org=0) and the subs simply try to retreat without beeing destroyed. There should always beeing a chance for a single sub to escape even while some other ones are still hunted, so those who got away should be grayed out for the duration of the battle or something. A single DD cant hunt 6 Subs at the same time for example.

If the subs spot the fleet first, it should be a commanders decision whether he wants to try an attack, if there are a lot of jucy easy targets without protection (CVs, BBs without many destroyers) they would probably try an attack, otherwise they would probably just sail away, avoiding contact.

If they attack, it'll be a surprise attack (coming in submerged, so only a very small chance for the fleet now to spot the subs, a periscope in the ocean is very hard to spot, the Subs should have a very good positioning in %), so they should be able to close in on ideal distance and than unload 4-5, maybe 8-10 shots each in a very quick succession (the torpedos launched), than it would be ASW again, the alerted ASW vessels from the fleet would start hunting the subs.

That would require some specific ASW code, but Sub hunting is something else than two surface fleets battleing it out with big guns. And the game should reflect that, which it doesn't at the moment.

In your first line is a big mistake: "If the surface fleet spots the subs"
You think totaly wrong. There is no "submarine fleet" you can spot. submarines dont travel together. they are scattered all over the patrol zone. So spotting one sub makes the duty for the others even more easy cause the enemy conentrates his ASW effort to the ONE spotted sub.

 

[unmerged(56550)]

In your first line is a big mistake: "If the surface fleet spots the subs"
You think totaly wrong. There is no "submarine fleet" you can spot. submarines dont travel together. they are scattered all over the patrol zone. So spotting one sub makes the duty for the others even more easy cause the enemy conentrates his ASW effort to the ONE spotted sub.

True, forgot that, a 'sub-fleet' should be ideally broken down into induviduals during combat, so, as a hot-fix and easy implementable if the game-engine can't manage this breakdown yet, the un-spotted subs from the sub-fleet should be greyed out and unattackale, to mark them as beeing un-spotted.

 

[unmerged(41044)]

The main reason that subs were onla "rarely" able to attack large surface fleets was that not many of those fleets were around to find. It a difference between weekly operating convoys were you know wer they are traveling and surface fleets on combat patrol.
As you said the german subs were used as convoy raiders cause it was and still is more effective than to hunt the warships cause you would need large amounts of subs to find the fleets. In the mediteranian there are some examples for subs who were on convoy raiding around malta sucessfully attacked surface fleets LINK.

Operation Pedestal was a heavily escorted convoy, not a surface fleet.

The other point you mentioned is that a wolfpack could never close to a surface fleet cause they are to fast? Sure a 20ktn fleet is for a 7ktn submerged sub a problem, but when one sub of a wolfpack spotted the fleet the others try to reach a position where they can lay down and wait for the surface fleet. That is the meaning of the wolfpack tactic. And there is no "keeping distance" to a wolfpack cause a wolfpack is not on one place its virtually everywhere in their patrol zone. So you can find a SUB but no Wolfpack.

Cruising speed (surface, night only) for a u-boat is 10 knots. Cruising speed for a surface fleet is 15-20 knots. Hence my comment about it being impossible.

And the destroyers you want to dispatch to hunt the suby detected by planes are nonesens. The detection abilitys by destroyers where extremly limited in range at this time. In the time the destroyer would reach the last spotted position of the sub it would be miles away so it would be pure luck.

The tactics I quoted are precisely what was used by strongly escorted convoys late-war. Wolf packs were detected gathering in the path of a convoy by aircraft (or ULTRA intercept), were kept submerged by land or CVL based aircraft, and hunted down by a detached group of ASW escorts.

Reading a book on the Battle of the Atlantic would be better but the Wiki entry is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_the_Atlantic#Hunter-Killer_goups

Subs were at every time a large threat for surface fleets and it was at every time possible for a sub to sneek through the ASW cover when they a) at least meet a surface fleet b) were in position to even close in.
An additional point is that and speeds above 10ktn the pasive and aktive sonar of the 40s gets more or less useless so you can forget that a destroyer making 20ktn notice a sub passing at slow speed right under it. But that doesnt also mean that subs had a easy job...

Yes, subs were considered a serious threat to surface assets. That's why surface fleets took measures that made them virtually invulnerable compared to convoys, such as constant variation in speed (averaging 20 knots) and direction, and sending ASW assets ahead to sweep (at 10 knots).

But I'm getting away... IRL Subs were better for convoy raiding as for sending them out to find and sink surface fleets, agreed. But in the game convoy raiding is by far not as effective as IRL. Not cause they can't sink enough ships, it cause the MEGA Stockpiles build up in the pre war time.

Valid point, and I too am disappointed this wasn't addressed.

And Subs are no cannonfooder for surface fleets. You can see what could happen when a wolfpack meets a surface fleet in the link above.

Only Pedestal was a convoy, not a surface fleet, and demonstrates what happens when you tie high-value surface assets to the speed of a convoy. The Pedestal lessons learnt were applied to PQ18 to Murmansk. Elements of the Home Fleet accompanied it, but in a detached role to prevent similar losses.

 

[Spruce]

hm, did anybody read my idea on the last page about "yellow" fire when sub fleets are caught at long range ... meaning a single sub flotilla breaks off from the main sub fleet that remains at longe range and infiltrates so it can make a shot at the main surface fleet ... ? This means with superior positioning a good wolf pack leader can kill a capital ship ? But perhaps his losses will be high.

off course - more then one yellow fire during one round is possible - but rare,