U-Boot vs Fleet bug?

[unmerged(56550)]

Hi all, I'm pretty new to HoI2-DD, just playing my second game as the germans, but I've noticed someting strange about my UBoots when they are attacked by a fleet. In such cases they simply completely fail to close in with the enemy fleet! How is that even possible, because after all to engage in ASW warfare the allied DDs would have to close in to 0m to drop their charges! But what I see is that an enemy carrier fleet engages me for days at 140km, and another fleet battles me at 23 km for hours, without my UBoots beeing able to close in.

My commander has skill level3 and is a Sea Wolf (having the 1939 UBoot verison, and only UBoots, no other vessels), while the enemy commander is just an lvl1 Old Guard :/

I fail to see the logic in these engagements, as soon as UBoots are spotted they should submerge and be from that point forward only engageble at 0m with deepth charges. Carriers shouldnt be able to engage UBoots at all, yes, they were traveling above water most of the time, so the planes should be able to get one surprise attack, but than the UBoots would immediately dive and be no longer attackable.

Is that a known bug? Will it be fixed in 1.2 (using the 1.1 patch already)

 

[Mork]

Carriers have planes you know. They fly.
I would say that the planes on the carriers you oppose have about a range of 140 km.

 

[Mork]

BTW, you do know that the biggest treat towards uboats was planes? Hence the whole "escort carrier" thingy.

This is all WAD, as it should be.

And you not being able to close the distance could be because that you haven't researched any doctrine.

 

[corwin]

This is WAD I'm afraid...I don't know the specific changes, but U-boats were toned down (or maybe US/UK doctrine values were upgraded?). In major battles, they're worthless even with most doctrines researched. Against CV-fleets, distance remains at over 100km, against BB-fleets over 20km. They hack you to pieces
U-boats are useful for convoy raiding and fighting screen-type ships only in DD.
To be honest that's how it should be. Pity I built over a hundred of them in my first game before I noticed

 

[unmerged(56550)]

Carriers have planes you know. They fly.
I would say that the planes on the carriers you oppose have about a range of 140 km.

Well, yes, as I said, a surprise atatck on the UBoots by the carrier planes is plausible, but after that every UBoot commander would immediately issue an alarm dive, and than all the planes could attack would be empty ocean

And planes have no technology to spot a submerged UBoot, it simply cant be done with WW2 technology, thats why a carrier fleet should be unable to hold the UBoots at 140km distance.

To find them the DDs would than have to close in on the last spotted position and start hunting the UBoots with sonar, and once spotted with depth charges.

But the way it is right now doesnt make sense, the UBoots should probably beeing unable to acually attack the main fleet because they wouldn't make it past the DDs and their sonar, but on the other hand the fleet should be unable to pin down the UBoots at such a far distance either.

 

[The Holy One]

Yet history has shown that U-Boats were one of the biggest threats to carriers...but are useless now.

And i seen that battles can go on for weeks, this must be something wrong.

 

[stabsoffizier]

Well, yes, as I said, a surprise atatck on the UBoots by the carrier planes is plausible, but after that every UBoot commander would immediately issue an alarm dive, and than all the planes could attack would be empty ocean

And planes have no technology to spot a submerged UBoot, it simply cant be done with WW2 technology, thats why a carrier fleet should be unable to hold the UBoots at 140km distance.

To find them the DDs would than have to close in on the last spotted position and start hunting the UBoots with sonar, and once spotted with depth charges.

But the way it is right now doesnt make sense, the UBoots should probably beeing unable to acually attack the main fleet because they wouldn't make it past the DDs and their sonar, but on the other hand the fleet should be unable to pin down the UBoots at such a far distance either.

HoI2 and DD as well do not simulate combat in such a detail. It's more than plausible that a CV fleet keeps them at such a distance. If you look at the naval battle in detail you will see that if someone really takes damage in such fight the DDs are the first ones, that's why they are called screens, they keep away the other naval forces (no matter which), locate them and order the capital ships to attack them. Planes in WWII could drop dive charges on u-boats.
AND do take into account that u-boats are nerfed a lot in DD, maybe a bit too much IMHO.


EDIT: you may be right with about the time naval battles take in DD, seems a bit strange to me too but then again it may be WAD as well. I saw other people complaining about it as well.

 

[unmerged(56550)]

It's more than plausible that a CV fleet keeps them at such a distance. If you look at the naval battle in detail you will see that if someone really takes damage in such fight the DDs are the first ones, that's why they are called screens, they keep away the other naval forces (no matter which), locate them and order the capital ships to attack them. Planes in WWII could drop dive charges on u-boats.

I cant remember the battles vs the carrier, but in my last engagement vs. come BBs it was clearly the BBs fireing at 30 or so km, not the DDs.

BBs shouldn't be able to attack Subs at all, because they are pretty useless in an ASW role, they are simply to slow. It seems to me as if HOI threats Subs like any other vessel, as it beeing visible and attackable oall the time by any other ship. Which, as I see it, would be a bug and render subs pretty much useless.

Oh, and planes did had a deepth charge , but that was for the occasions where they spotted a sub on the water and than attacked it before it could dive or at a very low deepth, thats something else thats not quite right about the HOI modeling of subs, they shouldnt have 100 STR, they were pretty fragile, they can't take multiple bomb hits like a BB, one direct hit and the Sub was most of the time done for.

 

[Mork]

Yes, and no sub could dive for very long, so a carrier could easily keep it's planes over the spot where they last where. Which happened more than once. As has been said before, the game doesn't simulate those things, they are abstracted.
Such is the case of large scale strategy games.

 

[unmerged(56550)]

Yes, and no sub could dive for very long, so a carrier could easily keep it's planes over the spot where they last where. Which happened more than once. As has been said before, the game doesn't simulate those things, they are abstracted.
Such is the case of large scale strategy games.

I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense, once a Sub has dived there is no way for a plane to keep track on it, a Sub can remain submerged for days, and it of course won't remain at its original position if they knew they were spotted, and there is nothing a plane can do to track them, nothing!

How are they going to tel in which directin the subs would go? at what speed? whe turn in another direction? maybe split up? No, planes cant track UBoots, only ships with sonar can.

 

[stabsoffizier]

BBs shouldn't be able to attack Subs at all, because they are pretty useless in an ASW role, they are simply to slow. It seems to me as if HOI threats Subs like any other vessel, as it beeing visible and attackable oall the time by any other ship. Which, as I see it, would be a bug and render subs pretty much useless.

On this one you are right (BB thing), yea, SSs are treated as any other vessel but how else (and why) should it be realized, again remember the scale HoI2 is running on.
Anyways, you can improve your subs stats easily by modding those.

Oh, and planes did had a deepth charge , but that was for the occasions where they spotted a sub on the water and than attacked it before it could dive or at a very low deepth, thats something else thats not quite right about the HOI modeling of subs, they shouldnt have 100 STR, they were pretty fragile, they can't take multiple bomb hits like a BB, one direct hit and the Sub was most of the time done for.

A BB as well can't take multiple bomb hits if they are unlucky. There is always a random combat modificator (well hidden in the depths of the mysterious .exe ) which simulates things like that else HoI would be just about simple maths. mod down your subs visibility and you'll notice a difference this would definitely simulate the diving part a lot better / different.

Side-Note: My granduncle second-grade was on a german submarine in wwII, he first was cook and then was promoted to navigator. He did two faults he told me of (and he's still alive!!!):
On one occasion (as a cook) he was inexperienced and cooked so much sauerkraut (really must have been a 'good' portion) that the boiler cooked over, sauerkraut all over the floor in the kitchen and the attaching rooms they had to go to surface level. british aircraft showed up, damaged them, back to port.
On another occasion (navigator, sonar) he fell asleep (!!!) and nobody took care of that. When the crew noticed this they emerged to surface level. needless to say: british aircraft showed up, damaged them, back to port.

He was degraded and was lucky to survive it all!

Remember that the next time when you nag about sub vs. surface vessel battle, maybe someone only forgot to serve the sauerkraut in time or fell asleep!

 

[Mork]

I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense, once a Sub has dived there is no way for a plane to keep track on it, a Sub can remain submerged for days, and it of course won't remain at its original position if they knew they were spotted, and there is nothing a plane can do to track them, nothing!

How are they going to tel in which directin the subs would go? at what speed? whe turn in another direction? maybe split up? No, planes cant track UBoots, only ships with sonar can.

What kind of uboat are you talking about? Present day?

Let me show you a WWII sub:

Type IXb

Submerged range of 64 miles, with a top speed, submerged, of 4 mph.

WWII subs couldn't stay under for days. Do read up on some of the records of WWII sub hunting, or just watch the old "Das Boot" which is an exelent series/movie and does give some idea how planes was used in this way.

 

[WarDog]

Subs are not realy usefull when playing germany anymore. They are great against convoys, but UK has tons of them. When you have sunk all the convoys, you still have to wait some years before UK runs out of resources.

The colonial units of UK will be severly punished in the long run, but there are reports about a supplie bug that starves them out anyway.

But if you play as germany, you are not after the colonies (at least not for some time). You want to take UK out of the war. That can only be done by invasion. So forget subs and build a navy with CVs. Remember to change your maritime doctrinal three to the one with all the CV goodies.
Build naval bombers and clean out the northsea to clear the way for your 1940 invasion of Newcastle.

The best way to use subs is to stay away from them...

 

[unmerged(56550)]

What kind of uboat are you talking about? Present day?

Let me show you a WWII sub:

Type IXb

Submerged range of 64 miles, with a top speed, submerged, of 4 mph.

WWII subs couldn't stay under for days. Do read up on some of the records of WWII sub hunting, or just watch the old "Das Boot" which is an exelent series/movie and does give some idea how planes was used in this way.

Thats the distance a UBoot can travel submerged, after that they had to reemerge to recharge their batteries, but its not the time they can stay submerged, thats only limited by the oxygen they had available. If you want to speak about the film Das Boot, remember when they were sunk, ditched on the sea ground and had to repair their UBoot? That certainly took days to accomplish.

But lets just stick to the 64 miles range submerged, thats 115km, thats a 230x230 km area they could be in after they traveled that long, or roughly 53.000 square kilometers. You aren't going to tell me that a few planes from a carrier could observe such a huge area, or?

 

[unmerged(12779)]

After studying the sub situation for the past week while playing DD,
I have come to the only conclusion there is. Subs are not subs in this
new version of HOI2. They are surface ships with 1 little pop-gun.
I just watched enemy carrier planes blast my 4 sub fleet to bits over
a 48 hr. period. Even in the dark, they just kept on blasting. There
was no way to get away. My subs would not take orders to retreat
or go back to base. Lets just remove them from the game entirely
if this is all they are good for. OR lets program them back to ACT like
submarines again. Being able to submerge is unique to subs but the
game has taken that feature away from them....


JIM

 

[Traks]

Being able to submerge is unique to subs but the
game has taken that feature away from them....

JIM

Ships submerge too, especially Japanese
Not sure if uberstack was better or worse implementation.

 

[wright1331]

I have to agree with some of the others... U boats are POINTLESS now...
having 12 subs sunk by 3 carriers some BB and a few lv's in a few hours is pretty damn stupid... Cv's should be able to spot subs somewhat, but they didnt have sonar so they shouldnt be very good at it, especially at night

Here are my hopes for the new patch...
Uboats should still do the same damage as they do now to surface vessals, but they should be more effective at finding convoys ( my 12 NB's can find more convoys in 2 weeks, than my 40-60 subs can in 1 year patroling the same sea zones)

Surface vessals should have a much harder time spottin subs, except DD's which were IRL the primary anti sub ship.

 

[_Curieus_]

Well, yes, as I said, a surprise atatck on the UBoots by the carrier planes is plausible, but after that every UBoot commander would immediately issue an alarm dive, and than all the planes could attack would be empty ocean

And planes have no technology to spot a submerged UBoot, it simply cant be done with WW2 technology, thats why a carrier fleet should be unable to hold the UBoots at 140km distance.

Not quite. On a clear day a submarine is visible when not below a certain depth. A trained crew can notice a shadow in the water.
A submarine that is moving will have a "bow wave" on the surface. How visible that is depends on the speed and depth of the submarine and on the surface condition

The MAD, magnetic anomaly detector was an invention of WWII. IIRC it was a modification of a magnetic mine detonator rig for airplaines.

Coastal command did sink a lot of subs that were submerged.

 

[unmerged(54975)]

BTW, you do know that the biggest treat towards uboats was planes? Hence the whole "escort carrier" thingy.

This is all WAD, as it should be.

And you not being able to close the distance could be because that you haven't researched any doctrine.

i have the same problem but i have researched every sea doctrine possible

 

[unmerged(54975)]

This is WAD I'm afraid...I don't know the specific changes, but U-boats were toned down (or maybe US/UK doctrine values were upgraded?). In major battles, they're worthless even with most doctrines researched. Against CV-fleets, distance remains at over 100km, against BB-fleets over 20km. They hack you to pieces
U-boats are useful for convoy raiding and fighting screen-type ships only in DD.
To be honest that's how it should be. Pity I built over a hundred of them in my first game before I noticed

in real life though subs sank carriers and battleships and the like not just convoys and escorts