Tyranny Patch Notes - 1.0.2.0021

[Balthazar69]

I'm not saying mages should do more damage single target. But aoe damage should deal more damage in total (summed up for all targets) than single target. No matter what the source is, cause there are both physical and magic single target and aoe. You also keep referring to some non existent class balance, even though you can make a character with 250 lore that fights with a 2h weapon like a pro in this game no problem. There are no classes. There are OP spells/skills and UP spells/skills. If anything, "warrior" is better off investing in the mage tree than in power or defence tree for 75% extra elemental damage (which is also a problem for tree balance, if we want them to be equally attractive, but it's not as huge as the stuff I listed like the bigger problems in my opinion)

There are classes... Indirectly.

Mage ? 200 in Lore + 6 slots (magic + commandement)

Warrior ? 200 in 2H weapon + power skills (Power)

You cannot have both in same efficiency, sorry. So... There is a balancing to maintain for each tree. (so, especially in Tyranny, with this multi-choice)

You're arguing that OP things that ruin gameplay and make any difficulty a joke should stay because they are needed for "balance" between non existent "classes"? Ok...
I don't care about "mages", "warriors" or else in this game, there are no classes. I

Same here. There is build witch conduct to a "class" approach, don't stuck on terms.

All the trees refers to weapons handlings. On 15 levels, you cannot invest in all. So you must make choice. Globally we go to one "class" or another.

Yes, the warrior have buff, but it's all. It's not a 225 of lore like Lantry or main mage. So it's not a mage, and this warrior will attack with the most efficiency = 2H. Simply.

 

[MadDemiurg]

I had 210+ lore (buffed) and 200ish weapon skill and parry on one of my chars. It's also easy to hit level 21 if you know what you're doing. And "Warrior" that uses 2h weapons is better off with the mage talent tree. So no, there are no classes.

 

[Balthazar69]

It's possible if you abuse/bias the game yes...

I don't want pass my time 10h+ to heal an allie for obtain 250 in control of life/parry

In general at the end of the game, you have 200 in one skill (taken via trainers generally.) 135 in another (Lore for exemple, if its not your main skill). The rest eventually to 100.

I talk of normal optimizer player. Not the "crazy" OOB (out of bound) optimizer^^.

 

[MadDemiurg]

It's possible with normal gameplay quite easily if you train every level and use proper skills. E.g if you sue buffs and attack with weapon you get a ton of both lore and weapon xp.

It's even easier if you solo.

And Lantry had 280+ buffed lore for me on my 1st (finished) playthrough when I focused on lore alone for him.

 

[Balthazar69]

Solo is particular. Its totally normal to have better stat but it's not generality.

Tyranny is a team-play game. Solo is an another way to play the game practiced by a very small minority. 90 % of players play with a team.

And no, I think it's impossible in team-play to have multiple 200~ without abusing the game.

If not, share your method ^^

 

[MadDemiurg]

I have looked at the skill trees and it looks very unbalanced.

Magic is the best because it give lore+spell slots (good for everybody, even if you attack only with weapons because of buffs), magic protection (DR and spell reflection, good for everybody) and +75% damage for weapon attacks.

Power and ranged tree have the problem that they are split between 2h/unarmed and bow/thrown. So half of the talents are useless, no matter what you chose.

Agility is useful (duellist alone is great) if you ignore all talents that are only good for dual wielding. Dual wielding is completely useless in this game. If agility was supposed to be the dual wielding tree, it feels strange that is is only good if you ignore its primary purpose.

In general, many talents are very powerful and a combination of some of them is completely overpowered. The early game is relatively hard because you have only a few talents. Later the game becomes very easy because you do not need to be a genius to find out which combinations are good.

I have the feeling that the system of Tyranny was strongly inspired by skyrim. The system of skyrim was better than Morrowind, Oblivion and several other skill based games. You had a skill tree for EVERY type of weapon, type of magic and support skills. You also needed some skill points in a skill in order to put talent points into the skill tree of this skill. Of course, it was very easy to become completely overpowered in skyrim (some nice videos show how to one hit a dragon). The skyrim system felt somehow more consistent or intuitive than tyranny. In tyranny several different skills are put together in one tree and you can spend all your points into magic without ever casting a spell.

Bonus question: Does anybody know a game with a classless learning by doing system, where it is not easy to become completely overpowered and that is somewhat consistent and makes sense role playing wise? I do not know such a thing so tyranny (while being far from perfect) is still one of the better classless skill based systems I know. Shadowrun and divinity series do not count because they are classless but not learning by doing

Spot on on talent trees. As for other games - I haven't played "learn by use" games that much, and I think it's a bit silly system gameplay wise, but I don't see why it should inherently introduce imbalance unless you abuse it to level up e.g. jumping like an idiot to level up athletics etc. Most Tyranny balance problems come just from talent/spell/ability balancing and that's something that has been done better by other games with classless systems.

 

[MadDemiurg]

Solo is particular. Its totally normal to have better stat but it's not generality.

Tyranny is a team-play game. Solo is an another way to play the game practiced by a very small minority. 90 % of players play with a team.

And no, I think it's impossible in team-play to have multiple 200~ without abusing the game.

If not, share your method ^^

Just play normally, use skills/spells at every opportunity and train every level. Use buffs for lore to craft better spells (you have +10 rest bonus + 20 consumable and there are a few items that increase lore, plus lategame you can cast an <spoliery effect> that gives you +15 to all skills in an area, so it's quite easy to get 60 or so extra lore from buffs alone). Lore levels up quite easily from buffs and heals w/o any damage spells, if you self buff + fight in melee you get a lot of parry/weapon/lore skill in combat.

 

[Balthazar69]

Yes, you speak of bonuses++. Ok. I wasn't understand.

I'm not totally sure, even with bonus to reach 3 skills at 200.

The game is so easy, parry and dodge... rarely used in battle = 110 dodge 90 parry in my last playthrough : p (PoTD)

 

[MadDemiurg]

Parry in particular, you'll never get super high parry if playing with an optimized full party unless you train it cause you kill everything before it touches you. But offensive skills - easy. For parry/dodge it's a must have to use a skill that makes one replace the other if you want to level them up cause all combat xp you get will level up one skill instead off 2. Parry/weapon/lore is still easy to get @ 200 if you use a shield in any setup, cause you have like +50 parry from the shield with shield mastery 2.

 

[Balthazar69]

I would like have your opinion on Sirin.

Have you notice a loss a XP with her ? I have watch its performance and Lore and when you do damage overtime (Offensives Stanzas), nothing is gain. It's expected, according to you ?

I have not tested to train her because of this effect.

 

[MadDemiurg]

I think she levels up Perform when doing damage with songs (her unique skill).

 

[Elfwind]

-Snip-
-Please buff endgame bosses (at least on higher difficulties), they are far too easy even with a suboptimal party or solo

TBH I'd rather be able to solo the bosses but have to build up to that capability, it was pretty immersion breaking to have people refer to me as some mighty "individual" (can't find spoilers) when I've had barik take all the heat off me and lantry heal us the entire time. If I'm going to be challenging "people" then I want to fit the theme.

So maybe soloing should generate bonus exp or power because it really does fit the theme of becoming a "mighty individual." I think it was the worst when you go to the village in the stone sea and they are like she must be powerful "mighty individual" but I've got 3 bodyguards...

 

[Balthazar69]

I have a solution for this problem :

Unlock the limit of level 21.

Solo player or abuse : go to level 30. (cap max)

Team-play based : Should reach 25 in anarchist path (My estimation, personnaly I was 21 optimized at 75 % of act 2). Should reach 20 for the others. (rebels, Nerat, Graven)

I think it's equilibrate.

This is for :
- Counter theorie of waste. (800 damage... by... my main 2 handed... Oh he is already level 21...? Sorry eb and barrik level 14, you may get the chance of the murder next time !) = everybody must continue to take level the later possible in the game OR, allocate the lost exp to others members of party when 21.
- Give amplitude to solo players.

 

[MadDemiurg]

TBH I'd rather be able to solo the bosses but have to build up to that capability, it was pretty immersion breaking to have people refer to me as some mighty "individual" (can't find spoilers) when I've had barik take all the heat off me and lantry heal us the entire time. If I'm going to be challenging "people" then I want to fit the theme.

So maybe soloing should generate bonus exp or power because it really does fit the theme of becoming a "mighty individual." I think it was the worst when you go to the village in the stone sea and they are like she must be powerful "mighty individual" but I've got 3 bodyguards...

There are always lower difficulties for those who want to roleplay...

I'm not entirely opposed to the game being soloable on PotD, but it should be excruciatingly difficult, requiring you to (ab)use every system there is.

 

[AndreaColombo]

This is for :
- [...]everybody must continue to take level the later possible in the game OR, allocate the lost exp to others members of party when 21.

I would vastly prefer the latter.

I hate games in which you max out shortly before they're over, with little to no content left to enjoy the power you've achieved. If I max out right before the final fight, it was all a waste of effort.

 

[Balthazar69]

My second proposition is ok (Same concept of pillars ! : p), but there is a main problem : in the spirit of this system, each character xp for himself.

And there is an other and last problem : Some people (in others thread) evokes the problem of unwanted XP (distributed for all active skills, same level 1 skill, activated but useless)

The optimizers don't want the least centime in useless skills, or non wanted skill. (If I do 300 with my main at level 21. Everything would have been in skill 2hand. Here, with our proposition : exp /3 (if all others aren't level 21) AND for all activated skills. You know ? The dilution is not favorable).

Same with an intelligent % via heigh of skill :

There is a loss because we must feed the intermediate skill like parry + Dodge etc.

In fine, if I am Eb with our exemple. -With target the best Lore-.

Lore = 50 xp / 300 (The rest goes to ohers skills ? 10 in control gel, electrical, emotion, parry, dodge etc).

Vs 150 xp /300 (Lore / 2, control of gel / 2) if I solo with eb and I control what she do.

This is a problem because Eb is very light in Lore. As there is 21 levels : it is a finite number. So, I prefer the second option.

It remain more interesting to solo with eb ! So the problem is only bypassed...

So this choice will not be unanimous. BUT it is a possibility for start^^

There is a third idea (but complicated to applie with a simple patch) :

A button for activated a skill (an idea from a friend in other thread).

In this situation, you can exclude from xp what you want.

 

[Madscientist3]

about hitting max level:
I dislike when you hit max level long before the game is over. For me, PoE (and Fallout3, maybe others) became more boring once you hit max level. The reason for this is that first the game teaches you that gaining exp and levels is a great reward, and later it takes away the reward you are used to and you do quests and fighting for nothing (unless they give a good item or skill). In fallout3 I really missed the sound that comes every time you gain exp, its like an addiction.
I would prefer a system where there is no max level, but at the end you need tons of exp for the next level. So most players will have more or less the same level while people who are obsessed with grinding and min maxing will have 2 or 3 levels more which makes not a giant difference in power.

I played on normal with a full party the disfavoured path and at the end I was lv16 and my party members lv14. In PoE I always hit max level long before the game was over. Did anybody finish PoE without hitting max level?

 

[AndreaColombo]

^ Different tastes, I reckon. My maximum enjoyment is when I face a boss fight with a maxed-out party packing endgame gear (of course that boss fight is supposed to be challenging even in that situation, which is unfortunately not granted in these games even at the highest difficulty setting.) If I max out and there's nothing else to do, I feel like I've spent the whole game trying to reach something I never get to use/enjoy. [Of course when I max out I'd like to get at least 3-4 more good fights to enjoy the power and items I've acquired; just 1 boss fight is too little.]

In terms of handling XP, I think Tyranny does a better job than Pillars of Eternity. On a completionist run with a full party, Tyranny gets you to anywhere between level 15 and 18 against a "theoretical" maximum of 21 ("theoretical" because there's no hard cap; you simply stop gaining enough experience to level up at 21.) However, if you want to max out to 21 before the game is over, you can solo part of Act II and get there; if you bring over some friends after that point, they'll also be maxed out. The system is flexible enough to suit everyone's tastes.

 

[MadDemiurg]

You easily hit 21 with full party on PotD if you train every lvl.

 

[AndreaColombo]

I see. I didn't now that as I've been playing on "Hard" so far (and didn't train every level to boot, since I couldn't access the master trainers I needed before I hit level 21 because priorities.)