tyranny from revoking viceroyalties?

[St. LongEar]

I haven't researched scenarios, but I would really like to understand what has been changed.
I was used to recovation of viceroyal titles, that if I revoke and liege is not happy with this decision, only he revolts AND I GET NO TYRANNY for claiming my rightful title.

Since I'm more concerned about dynasty, revocation of titles was crucial in expanding dynastic holdings. Also, it was a perfect tool in dissolving plots. Now it is not working as previously, but I'm fine with this CHANGE - I just want to know what exactly will rebell, when I'm taking MY title back from temporary owner. Also, keep in mind, that game forces me to revoke ALL duchy viceroyalties, before I hand them over to king level viceroyal - because granting just king level viceroyalty is not going to give me +100 opinion boost, that I'm getting, when I'm giving duchy viceroyalties seperately.



So, if I take away viceroyal title and owner says NO, then unlike declarations of war this is getting guessing game - what says, that only he will rebell or he and all his plot members? maybe even he and EVERYONE who hates me? As if wasn't enough of extra manpower, that rebels receive, when all their levies on the start of rebellion is full WITH RAISED ARMIES where I'm emptying levies, giving them 50% advantage on siege...

Also, unlike plot wars, even if war with those rebels are won(with help of mercenaries, as usually they get near 200% power) and I get rights to revoke their title as traitors... there starts an unending circle - it looks like I can get tyranny from revoking titles(even if they are traitors) and they raise flag of rebellion again(despite the previous war where they lost and were not imprisioned) and basically the question is again - I have no idea who is joining their rebellion? I have no time to guess and browse through all of the ones who hates me - usually all nondynastic title holders are hating me and that was fine by now, as if they rebelled, I could take away titles. And now this is unrealistic - enemies seems to be more unified, than dynastic members, who don't care when nondynastic liege is sqeezing their relative of their lands by declaring wars on them... wtf?!

Game currently fucks up player royally who do not want to play according to strict rules within boundaries. Revoking of viceroyalties is crucial in my game play style, because:
1. AI doesn't care about dynastic members - ONLY I do.
2. It is hard enough already to scuplt de jure drift and since it is impossible to take over whole world as it is, then the only way is to make half of kindom viceroyalties into titular landless kingdoms. And revoking of viceroyalties plays crucial part in this mechanic.

And I'm not talking about revoking despotic titles - sometimes when I'm not too careful, it takes ages to fix the mess. Because if viceroyalties levels on the same with despotic it makes no sense at all to grant viceroyalties, because of the negative opinion bonus, that comes with them and they accumulate it very quickly.

 

[raistlin_wizard]

Are you talking about kingdom viceroyalties? I think you've never been able to revoke those.

 

[aono]

You need Imperial Administration to have a right of free revocation for duchy-level viceroyalities, just ducal viceroyalities law is not enough. Also you haven't free revoke for king-level viceroyalities (and as I recall you never had).

 

[St. LongEar]

No, I'm talking about duchy viceroyalties, which I give to someone who receives kingdom viceroyalties. Since I grant viceroyalties to dynastic members, I don't really need to revoke kindom viceroyalties. I'm actually fine with them as they were. I mean - how many times you need to remove kingdoms from someone - maybe once in a 200 years, but duchy viceroyalties will change owners very frequently: after death of king, after splitting from kindom, after one king takes them from another king, etc. It is important tool for sculpting new borders of de jure kingdoms and because not all kingdoms are part of MY empire, it is also a tool to spread de jure empire, by granting new duchies to kingdom, that is de jure part of my empire. As I've explained earlier - micromanaging dynasties(which AI doesn't do) and micromanaging de jure borders is a complex task already and I have lots of thing to do from early game. And viceroyalties for any start is just 200-400 years away.

Byzantine empire has all those laws already, so you can easily test them from the start.

The question is not if I can revoke titles, because I can, but who is going to rebell if I revoke those duchy viceroyal titles. So far rebelled sole owner - now it seems, that he has aid to his rebellion without penalizing his helpers. The question is why? Why that change was needed? And what the hell - why I need to go to a war to viceroyalty to revoke something, that I can revoke any time I wanted? And why defeating them gives me an option to revoke just that viceroyal title(in case he has only one holding) and nothing else? What is the purpose of any viceroyal title holder to give up their viceroyal titles without a war, if for them the outcome is the same - viceroyalty removed? It seems like free harassment of emperror... because in either way opinion penalty still exist.

I have not been playing as a tyrant for years, but this mechanic just begs to go nuts on certain age and take away holdings up till the last, because prestige loss is not that important anymore. And I mean - why would you even need to keep those pesky lieges who harass you all your life? Grrrr...

 

[St. LongEar]

So, Byzantine empire with default laws:
Revoke title allowed.
Viceroyalty: duchies
Administration: Imperial

Council power: Abolished

Byzantine empire has duchy viceroyalties from the start, except for Amalfi republic, so except that all of the duchy level titles are FREELY revokable.

I have curently 3 rebellions:

1st is 80% of my forces - I was caught by surprise that 4 duchies rebelled instead of 1, but ok...
2nd is just forces of one duchy - that what I expected, when revoked title
3rd 200% of my forces - basically all the rest of empire - and I did not expect that force, and also there were no warnings that one pesky count would call so much force to help - and will find help across different part of empire, across cultural and religious differences. It is JUST unbelievable.
So, currently the game for me is unplayable, as it is unpredictable, what results I will get from sole revocation of sole duchy from sole owner of a duchy, who will want to rebell against this decission. The only unifying thing is that they all were plot leaders. In second case it seems, that his plot members did not came to help and that is baffling - why? Also, it still does not solve the problem - why game is not telling me who will support him when I'm removing title and he is saying NO. They all have no pacts amongst them, so why they rushed to help? Mind you - this behaviour is new and was nonexistent pre 2.6 patch. http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Patch_2.6#Balance


I just don't want to play other styles, so this game will collect dust unless fixed to a level, where I can understand what will rebell along with revocated duchy. Because the other styles are just workarounds of problem, where I will revocate duchies from someone I was not revocating earlier(because they loved me enough to allow me to revoce their titles... and that is heartbreaking) and using assassination on everything, letting enemies pillage and raid territories on purpose... basically playing a game of chaos, to squeeze them out and not letting them prosper and undercutting my own empire...

And I mean come on... patches should fix bugs, not introduce new ones. It was enough already, that 2.5.2 patch had a bug, where you got opinion penalty, when executing someone from other country(also belonging to a different religion group), who were fighting against my country...

Anyway, good luck to ya all, I'm firing up FO4 and visiting Nuka World.

 

[aono]

So far rebelled sole owner - now it seems, that he has aid to his rebellion without penalizing his helpers. The question is why? Why that change was needed? And what the hell - why I need to go to a war to viceroyalty to revoke something, that I can revoke any time I wanted?

AH! Simple.
If he is in alliance (made by briding) or, as I believe, in faction with another vassal, and you enter war with him, every his ally/faction member joins him. I like it - you shouldn't have an option to remove power from faction just dissolving every it's vassal one by one. It's quite more realistic then a couple of vassals who joins and plotting, liege starting weaking them and they do nothing.
So yeah, if your strategos have a power base within fellow nobles, you're in trouble.

 

[St. LongEar]

AH! Simple.
If he is in alliance (made by briding) or, as I believe, in faction with another vassal, and you enter war with him, every his ally/faction member joins him. I like it - you shouldn't have an option to remove power from faction just dissolving every it's vassal one by one. It's quite more realistic then a couple of vassals who joins and plotting, liege starting weaking them and they do nothing.
So yeah, if your strategos have a power base within fellow nobles, you're in trouble.

Well, then that dramatically changes everything in strategy play - I would just revoke titles when they are at 80% of plot power. It still makes no sense, that there would be support to revoking from plot group, because making a plot that is kinda hidden and would be useful only if succeeded is one thing, but participation in tyranic rebellion, thus exposing all the plotters is another thing. I don't see a connection why would someone defend title revocation, if their cultures differ, their religions differ - in RL mob instincts take over and people replace fear of that these things are not directed towards them and feel joy of schadenfreude. Because tyranic rebellion or not, but rebels are always losing something after unsuccessful rebellion and currently these rebellions doesn't pusnish rebellers in case I win the war(by spending hard earned money on mercs), So, what's the point to revoke then? Game currently forces me to revoke titles from someone who adores me, and makes impossible to revoke titles from someone who is not doing their job properly and plots against me. I mean, - ok, even if that is the case, that they would find the supoport - that's fine by me, but then they can't be tried as rebells, when I win the war... all that I have is an option to imprision them and when I do, they rebell again and all their buddies rebell, too. Basically, the justice system is broken.

 

[aono]

Being in the faction isn't a crime, and factions are not hidden.

 

[Aries666]

I believe the last patch fixed a bug with tyranny rebellions. Namely that when the rebellion fired other discontent vassals were not being invited/joining resulting in painfully weak rebellions involving only the target of the revocation. However, I don't know what the exact criteria for vassals joint now.