Typical European Steriotype About Ottoman Knowledge of New World

[french kiss]

It is really sad that pdx also accepts this ridiculous view.

In the game Ottoman tech can't see the Americas even in the 1600s (maybe up to 1700s too) but in real life they had knew about Americas as well as they went to there itself (they even brought women to the harem from coasts of Virginia, maybe the name of the city Virginia comes from the virgin girls taken by the Ottomans lol). More funny thing the landlocked European countries such as Bohemia or other German principalities who know nothing about Americas can see there.

quote from wiki...

Operations in the Atlantic Ocean
Starting from the early 17th century, the Ottoman fleet began to venture into the Atlantic Ocean (earlier, Kemal Reis had sailed to the Canary Islands in 1501, while the fleet of Murat Reis the Elder had captured Lanzarote of the Canary Islands in 1585). In 1617 the Ottoman fleet captured Madeira in the Atlantic Ocean, before raiding Sussex, Plymouth, Devon, Hartland Point, Cornwall and the other counties of western England in August 1625. In 1627 Ottoman naval ships, accompanied by Barbary corsairs under the leadership of Murat Reis the Younger, captured the Isle of Lundy in the Bristol Channel, which served as the main base for Ottoman naval and privateering operations in the North Atlantic for the next five years. They raided the Shetland Islands, Faroe Islands, Denmark-Norway, Iceland and Vestmannaeyjar. Between 1627 and 1631 the same Ottoman force also raided the coasts of Ireland and Sweden. Ottoman ships later appeared off the eastern coasts of North America, particularly being sighted at the English colonies like Newfoundland and Virginia.

There is famous navigator Piri Reis who had drawn maps of Americas and Antarctica. His map of new world is one of the oldest maps in the world (dated 1513). According to him he had drawn these maps by looking Colomb's or others' maps but the point is he was the admiral of the Ottoman navy which means Ottomans knew about Americas.

Spoiler: The Atlantic, 1513

The world map of Piri Reis is the oldest known Turkish atlas showing the New World, and one of the oldest maps of America still in existence anywhere.

In the game (year 1600)

Even the Global Trade Institute's text is talking about the discoveries of Americas and Cape Hope but we can't see there lol. If someone asks where is America to us we would reply with "Errmm yeah there! Don't you see? There! There it must be somewhere in those gray place".

 

[Twoflower]

Pro tip: your arguments might be more likely to be taken seriously if you refrained from entirely outrageous etymological hypotheses - it's a rather well known fact that the colony of Virginia was named after the Virgin Queen, Elizabeth I....

 

[french kiss]

Pro tip: your arguments might be more likely to be taken seriously if you refrained from entirely outrageous etymological hypotheses - it's a rather well known fact that the colony of Virginia was named after the Virgin Queen, Elizabeth I....

i know the origin of virginia.
it was supposed to be joke.

Plus I am not convinced a Wikipedia article can be trusted here. The current president of Turkey, Erdogan, also claimed, America was discovered by a Muslim and there was a Mosque already when Columbus wnet there. Since he has many fans, the Wiki article might be influenced from an edit war or so.

no wikipedia article is not influenced from him plus he banned wikipedia in turkey lol (you need to use vpn to enter wiki). this article is older than that muslim/america discovery discussions.

anyway still there is a map and ottoman tech should be see americas and other discoveries in the game.

and wait a minute, here another turk in america from the event in game:
interesting story: http://www.kansasgenealogy.com/history/turk.htm

 

[Zohtun]

I'm gonna get hate for this, but whatever.

Quit being a lazy Turk and take exploration ideas. Problem solved. The argument here is unimpressive IMO.

"Historically Turkey found America" that's great and all but if you're playing a landbased monolith Ottoman Empire then no, you don't get free exploration. Take the idea set EXPLICITLY NAMED EXPLORATION and go find America like the Turks had to IRL if you want them to see America in game.

The Spaniards didn't go "Hey Mehmet check out this cool place". The Turks had to send their own explorers. The game reflects the "Sharing of information" through the natural map drift. Spain had to tell the Pope about the new world (especially when the Treaty of Tordesillas was formed to stop the two Iberians from fighting over the new world), hence any Catholic interested can go find out about it. But none of them went off and told the Ottomans. So if the Ottomans don't send off their own explorers, then why should they get them for free?

"Historically they made their own maps by sending their own explorers. So we should be able to skip sending explorers in-game!" That is what this argument is. It makes no sense except to buff Ottomans for no reason.

TL;DR, This idea is already reflected ingame through Ottomans taking exploration. They don't need to change mechanics because some Ottophile wants free maps. Spend the monarch power, take the idea set and send out explorers like the Turks of old did.

 

[chegitz guevara]

"Historically they made their own maps by sending their own explorers. So we should be able to skip sending explorers in-game!" That is what this argument is. It makes no sense except to buff Ottomans for no reason.

TL;DR, This idea is already reflected ingame through Ottomans taking exploration. They don't need to change mechanics because some Ottophile wants free maps. Spend the monarch power, take the idea set and send out explorers like the Turks of old did.

No, that didn't happen. The Piri Reis map was compiled by looking at over 20 different European maps. The Turks captured maps from the Christians. They didn't cross the Atlantic.

 

[Zohtun]

No, that didn't happen. The Piri Reis map was compiled by looking at over 20 different European maps. The Turks captured maps from the Christians. They didn't cross the Atlantic.

"Steal maps" is also in the game already. Additionally, your statement contradicts the OP, which speaks of Ottoman ships sighted in English North-American colonies. This implies they did, in fact, cross the Atlantic.

Plus making your own map by compiling other people's maps to proofcheck their information is still making your own map. Just saying.

 

[french kiss]

I'm gonna get hate for this, but whatever.

Quit being a lazy Turk and take exploration ideas. Problem solved. The argument here is unimpressive IMO.

"Historically Turkey found America" that's great and all but if you're playing a landbased monolith Ottoman Empire then no, you don't get free exploration. Take the idea set EXPLICITLY NAMED EXPLORATION and go find America like the Turks had to IRL if you want them to see America in game.

The Spaniards didn't go "Hey Mehmet check out this cool place". The Turks had to send their own explorers. The game reflects the "Sharing of information" through the natural map drift. Spain had to tell the Pope about the new world (especially when the Treaty of Tordesillas was formed to stop the two Iberians from fighting over the new world), hence any Catholic interested can go find out about it. But none of them went off and told the Ottomans. So if the Ottomans don't send off their own explorers, then why should they get them for free?

"Historically they made their own maps by sending their own explorers. So we should be able to skip sending explorers in-game!" That is what this argument is. It makes no sense except to buff Ottomans for no reason.

TL;DR, This idea is already reflected ingame through Ottomans taking exploration. They don't need to change mechanics because some Ottophile wants free maps. Spend the monarch power, take the idea set and send out explorers like the Turks of old did.

You do have reading problems? You are the lazy one i guess. Please read it what i wrote right there, it is not that hard to understand.

I am pointing out that the Bohemia or ordinary landlocked states can see the Americas while the mighty Ottomans who controls the all over Mediterranean sea can't.

Did those European countries take exploration idea? NO if you don't know the game mechanics then don't talk. They can see the Americas just being in western tech and it has nothing to do with taking exploration idea group. Every western tech country can see the explorations after 50 years after its first discovery time.

What i am saying "50 years duration" should be apply on Anatolian tech too.

No, that didn't happen. The Piri Reis map was compiled by looking at over 20 different European maps. The Turks captured maps from the Christians. They didn't cross the Atlantic.

How do you know? Were you there? Look at the game event even some Turks were in the Americas at that time... Pdx put that event into the game not me.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

Let's leave the modern politics to the OT forum.

 

[Zohtun]

You do have reading problems? You are the lazy one i guess. Please read it what i wrote right there, it is not that hard to understand.

I am pointing out that the Bohemia or ordinary landlocked states can see the Americas while the mighty Ottomans who controls the all over Mediterranean sea can't.

Did those European countries take exploration idea? NO if you don't know the game mechanics then don't talk. They can see the Americas just being in western tech and it has nothing to do with taking exploration idea group. Every western tech country can see the explorations after 50 years after its first discovery time.

What i am saying "50 years duration" should be apply on Anatolian tech too.

Ok first of all, I apologise for coming across there as being overly jerkish. It was intended as a joke. I'd rather this escalation stops here, so please drop the personal attacks and I shall do the same. It's not quite productive to a polite argument and I'm very sorry for my part in this.

On topic, the Czechs knew of the New World by 1600. In a quick google search, this website came up. To quote it:

Prior to the nineteenth century, few Czechs had immigrated to the United States, and evidence of their presence during the colonial and revolutionary periods is sketchy. Hermann Augustine (1605-1686), one of the founders of the Virginia tobacco trade and compiler of the first map of Maryland and Virginia, is thought to be the first Czech immigrant. In 1638 Czech Protestant exiles, who had set sail for America in the service of the Swedish army, assisted in the building of Fort Christina on a tributary of the Delaware River.

Assuming it's not complete falsehoods (Which I doubt since why bother when citing something which could be so easily fact-checked?), this would mean Bohemia/Czech knew of America by the point you cite and that them knowing of it in-game is quite historical. Whether they knew because of the theorycrafting I offered before of the Spainiards sharing the information with the Pope or what I do not know, but the point stands. Bohemia knew of America, your point there is formally refuted.

Now, this wasn't aimed at me but it does work into my argument so I'm going to intercept here.

How do you know? Were you there? Look at the game event even some Turks were in the Americas at that time... Pdx put that event into the game not me.

Well...you did bring this into the discussion from the get-go my friend. That map you cite is the one created by Piri Reis. A simple skim of his wikipedia article reveals this titbit:

According to his imprinting text, he had drawn his maps using about 20 foreign charts and mappae mundi (Arab, Spanish, Portuguese, Chinese, Indian and Greek) including one by Christopher Columbus.

The man you cite as "This is why the Ottomans should be able to see America" is the same one @chegitz guevara speaks of. The man himself admitted he used foreign maps and kindly left us future people a note about it. The Ottomans did not cross the Atlantic, at least not for the sake of that map. Them crossing later is possible, but that's not exploration at that point it's simply using a map they already have.

Can't cheery pick history, Kiss. It's all or nothing. Peri Reis did not cross the seas. You've certainly proven me wrong in that the Ottomans using explorers would be ahistorical, you have replaced it with the Ottomans needing to use the "Steal Maps" function to obtain the information in question. Maybe an event could occur if the Ottomans steal a map that reveals one piece of North America which fires to cause them to see all of the East side of North America and the North end of central to reflect Piri Reis using these stolen maps to constuct a Turkish view of the New World, but the 50-year-drift is definitely off the table here. Sorry, but I just don't agree with such a senseless buff.

 

[french kiss]

Assuming it's not complete falsehoods (Which I doubt since why bother when citing something which could be so easily fact-checked?), this would mean Bohemia/Czech knew of America by the point you cite and that them knowing of it in-game is quite historical. Whether they knew because of the theorycrafting I offered before of the Spainiards sharing the information with the Pope or what I do not know, but the point stands. Bohemia knew of America, your point there is formally refuted.

Do you really believe that Spaniards had shared information with pope so all European countries in the game can know about Americas? Then why Poland doesn't know anything in the game? Bohemia is just an example and even if we go on that sharing information with pope thesis the most powerful state in the world (aka Ottomans) in that time could easily get that information right? Sharing maps of America was not so secret thing.

Well...you did bring this into the discussion from the get-go my friend. That map you cite is the one created by Piri Reis. A simple skim of his wikipedia article reveals this titbit:

Again i am talking about whole Ottoman Navy Operations and you are talking about Piri Reis. The thesis of yours can't prove that The Turks didn't sail to the Americas at that time. Ottoman Empire didn't make colonies so they didn't need to send cartographers to the Americas but their navy operated on there as well as they did around England and Scandinavia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ottoman_conquests,_sieges_and_landings
Landings at the shoreline between Cadiz and Lisbon 1616
Capture of Madeira in the Atlantic Ocean 1617
Landings at Sussex, Plymouth 27 ships were taken away from its port), Devon, Hartland Point, Cornwall and the other counties of western England in August 1625

The man you cite as "This is why the Ottomans should be able to see America" is the same one @chegitz guevara speaks of. The man himself admitted he used foreign maps and kindly left us future people a note about it. The Ottomans did not cross the Atlantic, at least not for the sake of that map. Them crossing later is possible, but that's not exploration at that point it's simply using a map they already have.

Can't cheery pick history, Kiss. It's all or nothing. Peri Reis did not cross the seas. You've certainly proven me wrong in that the Ottomans using explorers would be ahistorical, you have replaced it with the Ottomans needing to use the "Steal Maps" function to obtain the information in question. Maybe an event could occur if the Ottomans steal a map that reveals one piece of North America which fires to cause them to see all of the East side of North America and the North end of central to reflect Piri Reis using these stolen maps to constuct a Turkish view of the New World, but the 50-year-drift is definitely off the table here. Sorry, but I just don't agree with such a senseless buff.

Dude i don't want to insult you but you still don't get my point and mixing apples and oranges of my worlds. I didn't say Piri Reis went to the Americas i just shared an example of him. He'd maps of America and he was the Amiral of the Ottoman Navy. Do you really expect that the mighty Ottoman Empire didn't know Americas in real life? Really?

They'd knew about Americas They have had maps of Americas even in the 1500s. They didn't need to go America for knowing their existence of maps. But still Ottoman Navy had some operations on Atlantic, England and Scandinavia in later dates.

That means in the game Ottomans should see the Americas after 50 years of its exploration with the other European countries.

 

[chegitz guevara]

"Steal maps" is also in the game already.

Not from taking them off ships, it isn't. Which is how it happened. If a ship was in danger of being taken, a pilot was supposed to destroy his charts, but that didn't always happen.

Additionally, your statement contradicts the OP, which speaks of Ottoman ships sighted in English North-American colonies. This implies they did, in fact, cross the Atlantic.

He can be right about one thing, that is, the Turks had knowledge of the New World fairly quickly, and be wrong as to why.

But still Ottoman Navy had some operations on Atlantic, England and Scandinavia in later dates.

There is a massive ocean between Europe and the Americas. Simply conducting raids in the British Isles or Scandinavia doesn't mean they crossed the Atlantic. And there's no record of the Turkish navy crossing the Atlantic, even if individuals did cross ... on Christian ships. Africans were in the Americas too, and they didn't cross on their own ships.



Martin Waldseemüller, from the Duchy of Lorraine, made several maps of the world, including the New World (and in fact is the one who named it America). Lorraine never sent any expeditions to the New World.

The Turks didn't have to go to the New World to map it. They don't need explorers, but knowledge should travel faster than it does.

 

[TheWalttu]

What would the Turks do with the information anyway?

 

[Twoflower]

The relevant question here is: how early should the Ottomans (and other Anatolian tech countries) be able to colonize provinces in America without picking exploration, because this is what "knowing" a province means in-game. Since (I suppose) there is no pressing need for an Ottoman East America and Ottoman Peru as common occurences, the answer is: not too early, please.

General awareness of an area and having local cartographers produce maps covering that area clearly does not equal a country seeing those provinces in EU4 - at least as far as I know, nobody would seriously suggest that e.g. Nuremberg should have knowledge of most of Africa and Asia (including Cipango/Japan) in 1492 (which is when Martin Behaim's famous Erdapfel was constructed).

 

[yarakhasan]

nobody would seriously suggest that e.g. Nuremberg should have knowledge of most of Africa and Asia (including Cipango/Japan) in 1492 (which is when Martin Behaim's famous Erdapfel was constructed).

Of course because Nuremberg already sees Americas. Then why Nuremberg can see the Americas while Ottomans can't see?

What i am saying "50 years duration" should be apply on Anatolian tech too.

That means in the game Ottomans should see the Americas after 50 years of its exploration with the other European countries.

+1 this.

 

[Twoflower]

Of course because Nuremberg already sees Americas. Then why Nuremberg can see the Americas while Ottomans can't see?

The point is that Nuremberg does not see Africa and Asia in 1492, although a globe depicting those areas was constructed in that city in 1492.

 

[ElGranCapitan]

Bohemia is btw the worst example you could have picked, as it was ruled by the brother of the king of Spain

So the chance about them not knowing about America is literally zero

 

[moscal]

In the game Ottoman tech can't see the Americas even in the 1600s

Can see - can steal the map (spy action + MN); create explorer and fleet (idea Quest for the New World) and others actions.

 

[french kiss]

The point is that Nuremberg does not see Africa and Asia in 1492, although a globe depicting those areas was constructed in that city in 1492.

they see after 50 years of their exploration by the portuguese or castilians. ottomans should see with the same way.

What would the Turks do with the information anyway?

same thing as what would opm europeans with this information?

 

[Mingmung]

European stereotype? Yeah, nowadays we Europeans are to blame for everything in this world...

But whatever, you're making a fuss about something that has almost zero impact on the gameplay. And say what you want, but the detail of the map shows that this game is far from being stereotypical towards non-Europeans.

And about that Reis fella: Reis was a Dutchman who converted and became a corsair. He made his own small (and short-lasting) independent 'state' somewhere in a Moroccan port-city. He and his vessels did raid all of these places in England and the like, but they were not really a part of the Ottoman navy: they waved the Dutch flag if coming across muslim ships and the Ottoman flag if finding Christian ships. He was a pirate through and through, not a real privateer. The ships were also small and few in numbers.

Some more information about him: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon

 

[Danskjävel]

Why so incapable of using rethorics and a polite language?

Revelation of maps is somewhat lacking for most nations. For some it shows you too much before it should, for other it shows not enough. Because it is tied to regions.
Do you have a suggestion for a dynamic algorithm that improves this without expanding the already huge CPU-use unnecessarily?

This is not an Ottomans only-problem. Far from it. Why do you insinuate that people is narrow minded only to make a (shamfurr) display of exactly that?

Try again with actual arguments and non-abusive language.