Types of hive mind

[AaronArx]

Do you think it will be possible to have different forms of hive mind?

Like could there be some alternatives to the classic absolute hive-mind like the Borg Collective or the Bugs from Star Ship troopers?

In other threads was pointed out about how there can be hive minds that don't completely obliterate individual thinking, but rather bring it into a larger fold. Such as the Geth consensus for example, in which decisions are made by correlating data from different point of views reaching a consensus.

I personally hope that there will be a possibility for this trough the choosing of the civics.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

The two civics suggests that it will have a variety of hive mind types, now of course I have no idea how many but we should learn more on Thursday.

 

[The Founder]

Do you think it will be possible to have different forms of hive mind?

Like could there be some alternatives to the classic absolute hive-mind like the Borg Collective or the Bugs from Star Ship troopers?

In other threads was pointed out about how there can be hive minds that don't completely obliterate individual thinking, but rather bring it into a larger fold. Such as the Geth consensus for example, in which decisions are made by correlating data from different point of views reaching a consensus.

I personally hope that there will be a possibility for this trough the choosing of the civics.

I see three possibilities:
1. No additional Ethos. They are diversified entirely via the Civics chosen.
There is at least one example of a AI Personality being turned into a Civic (Fanatic Purifiers). So maybe there will just be a set of "Major Civics" that define AI type/allow players to play like that kind of AI? It is a possibility we have to consider.

2. It counts as 2 Points Ethos selection. That would allow a single non-Fanatic Ethos to give the hivemind direction. At the very least it would allow to unlock some ethos specific techs and Ascension Paths.

3. It counts as 1 Point Ethos selection, but locks out the non-Fanatic Ethos types. Basically like 2, just more extreme. They are of one mind, about a certain thing.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

1. No additional Ethos. They are diversified entirely via the Civics chosen.

This seems likely, in the image of the hive mind species it doesn't show any ethos other than Hive Minded.

2. It counts as 2 Points Ethos selection. That would allow a single non-Fanatic Ethos to give the hivemind direction. At the very least it would allow to unlock some ethos specific techs and Ascension Paths.

See above.

3. It counts as 1 Point Ethos selection, but locks out the non-Fanatic Ethos types. Basically like 2, just more extreme. They are of one mind, about a certain thing.

I honestly don't think that hive minds will have any ethos, rather they'll possibly choose between possible hive mind civics that would determine bonuses and behavior for the AI.

 

[AaronArx]

I see three possibilities:
1. No additional Ethos. They are diversified entirely via the Civics chosen.
There is at least one example of a AI Personality being turned into a Civic (Fanatic Purifiers). So maybe there will just be a set of "Major Civics" that define AI type/allow players to play like that kind of AI? It is a possibility we have to consider.

I think that's the most likely possibility. This is suggested by how the new population ethics are distributed, each pop adopts one non-fanatical etho of the empire. In an hive mind o any kind, any and all of the pops would be supposed to have the same etho.

 

[The Founder]

This seems likely, in the image of the hive mind species it doesn't show any ethos other than Hive Minded.

I think that's the most likely possibility. This is suggested by how the new population ethics are distributed, each pop adopts one non-fanatical etho of the empire. In an hive mind o any kind, any and all of the pops would be supposed to have the same etho.

You should not forget that you can pick less then a full set of Ethos. Indeed a single normal one is okay.

And to answer the question of "why would the poster of that pick do that?" let me quote another poster:
"Because he has been taking lessions from Wiz on how to troll/mislead people".

 

[Caspoi]

I hope that you can play as a hive mind that does not have telepathic powers but instead basically operates on the standard workers being too stupid to question anything.

 

[Foefaller]

I hope that you can play as a hive mind that does not have telepathic powers but instead basically operates on the standard workers being too stupid to question anything.

So, space ants?

I'm hoping that it's not just starting ethos only, and that there are ways (probably triggered via events) to become a Hive Mind after reaching the final step in your Psionic/Biological/AI ascension.

Also hoping that there is a Hive Mind flavor that can assimilate other pops (and not just via cybernetics ala the Borg) as well as options to dealing with alien pops in your borders beyond driving them out or purging them (which IIRC is what the current Hive Mind AI type whenever it gets worlds with alien pops on it.)

 

[Hazrond]

i hope that you can convert aliens to the hive mind as well and another cool feature i hope for is that if they capture a hive mind world the hive mind pops would form something similar to the "Return us back to the empire you captured us from" Faction that we have now

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Bearing in mind that "Fanatic Purifiers" were originally an AI personality that emerged from a very particular set of government traits, I think it would be not unreasonable to assume that the "Hive Mind" government is intended to replace the "Hive Mind" AI personality- i.e., the government and its mechanics will encourage play similar to that of the Hive Mind AI personality's intent.

Hive Mind AIs tend to be very expansionist but not especially violent unless penned in, in which case all bets are off.

Another view is that the Hive Mind government turns your empire into a direct extension of you, the player- so it has a great freedom of expression in what it can do and cuts out a majority of the internal politics/factions/etc, along with their pros and cons.

EDIT: Paraphrased from the wiki:

Hive Mind
Prerequisites: Fanatic Collectivist, NOT Pacifist/Fanatic Pacifist, has the "Conformist" Trait.

Hive Minds concern themselves with the propagation of their species above all else. So long as they have room to expand, there is little to fear from them, but if boxed in they will think nothing of seizing worlds and slaughtering their native population.

Characteristics:

• Conqueror – Conquer planets from other empires.
• Dominator – Invade primitives.
• Opportunist – Attack someone already embroiled in war.
• Propagator – Only get aggressive once boxed in.
• Purger – Purge alien pops.
• Slaver – Enslave pops.

 

[Milten]

I think it would be not unreasonable to assume that the "Hive Mind" government is intended to replace the "Hive Mind" AI personality- i.e., the government and its mechanics will encourage play similar to that of the Hive Mind AI personality's intent.

I think it would be reasonable to expect multiple Hive Mind personalities now, since unlike FP it has separate ethos and government type, so they are clearly putting some effort into it.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I think it would be reasonable to expect multiple Hive Mind personalities now, since unlike FP it has separate ethos and government type, so they are clearly putting some effort into it.

Potentially. That doesn't really disagree with anything I said, though- there's no reason to not at least look towards the existing behaviour of what Paradox considers a "Hive Mind" for what we might expect the Hive Mind government to do.

 

[The Founder]

I hope that you can play as a hive mind that does not have telepathic powers but instead basically operates on the standard workers being too stupid to question anything.

That one picture is already showing us a lot. "Natural Neural Network" does sound like one of many Options for "how" the Hivemind works.

 

[Caspoi]

That one picture is already showing us a lot. "Natural Neural Network" does sound like one of many Options for "how" the Hivemind works.

Hopefully yes, I usually like the harder science fiction species and my pet hive mind basically operates on a rather complicated caste system where everyone is so specialized on their given task that they don't really think outside of it.

 

[Rip Off Productions]

the Dev Diary shows that the Hive Mind Ethos takes 3 'points':

but the Hive Mind being an ethos made me think that maybe we could get a deeper variety of them: there would be a scale of 4 "Mental Structure" Ethoses that you would have to mandatorally pick one of to determine what kind of species you are:

Individuals: basic vanilla Stellaris; each POP as it's own happiness and Ethos. Costing 0 'points'

Biological Caste System: the 'social' hierarchy of this species is written into their genes, each has their place and it would be foolish to say otherwise; POPs have their own happiness and Ethos, but can only have caste system' citizen rights and will always have 100%(+200% for the trait bonus?) tolerance of slavery for their own species regardless of their Ethos. Costs 1 'point'

Melded Society: each "individual" is technically an independent entity, but can commune directly mind to mind with others of its species; POPs have their own Ethos, but will share a collective happiness level on a per Planet level, and will suffer a large penalty if there is not a large number of same species POPs on the planet, they are ruled by a collective gestalt personality that provides an additional happiness boost to all living under it's rule(but those outside can live without it), and will change it's "government Ethos" based on whatever is most common amongst it's POPs. Costs 2 'points'

Hive Mind: a single undying collective consciousness controls the entire species. works as described in the Dev Diary. Costs 3 'points'

each of these gives the species a trait of the same name that can be gene modded into the others later if desired.

and on the subject of gene Modding and Hive Minds: I think the Hive Mind should start with a trait like "Natural Hive Mind" or "Biological Hive Mind" and only be able to control it's own species, not being able to rule other Hive Mind species until Gene modding in a "Expanded Hive Mind" or "Artificial Hive Mind" trait into itself, and even then they'd then need to add a "Hive Mind compatible" trait into other species to control them directly: this trait also allows the POP that has it to survive outside Hive Mind space as this trait would be in addition to rather then replacing their Mental Structure trait(allowing you to "save" or "liberate" those who have been wrongly "subjugated" by it)

 

[Qoff]

Biological Caste System: the 'social' hierarchy of this species is written into their genes, each has their place and it would be foolish to say otherwise; POPs have their own happiness and Ethos, but can only have caste system' citizen rights and will always have 100%(+200% for the trait bonus?) tolerance of slavery for their own species regardless of their Ethos. Costs 1 'point'

Chimera Ants

Melded Society: each "individual" is technically an independent entity, but can commune directly mind to mind with others of its species; POPs have their own Ethos, but will share a collective happiness level on a per Planet level, and will suffer a large penalty if there is not a large number of same species POPs on the planet, they are ruled by a collective gestalt personality that provides an additional happiness boost to all living under it's rule(but those outside can live without it), and will change it's "government Ethos" based on whatever is most common amongst it's POPs. Costs 2 'points'

Geth

 

[smjjames]

Chimera Ants

Or most eusocial insects. Some are more heavily specialized into castes than others,[/QUOTE]

 

[Rip Off Productions]

Chimera Ants

I'd also think that picking Biological Caste System would let you take a syncretic evolution style Civic that gives you buildable "worker drone" POPs that are basicly organic robots, but give your normal POPs some extreme disadvantages to doing physical labor(Mineral and Food collection, maybe energy too) and a huge happiness hit and be unable to grow/grow slower new POPs if they don't have drones under them(as well as making it so drones are less functional if there aren't any 'leader' POPs around).

Geth

Geth are more like the standard Hive Mind; sure it can be broken down into smaller ones, but individual Geth runtimes are not "smart" enough to function as a sapient entity on its own.

the melded society is more meant to be reflective of something like "Mars" from A Miracle of Science.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

Biological Caste System: the 'social' hierarchy of this species is written into their genes, each has their place and it would be foolish to say otherwise; POPs have their own happiness and Ethos, but can only have caste system' citizen rights and will always have 100%(+200% for the trait bonus?) tolerance of slavery for their own species regardless of their Ethos. Costs 1 'point'

This isn't a hive mind, interesting sure but it doesn't fit with actual hive minds.

Melded Society: each "individual" is technically an independent entity, but can commune directly mind to mind with others of its species; POPs have their own Ethos, but will share a collective happiness level on a per Planet level, and will suffer a large penalty if there is not a large number of same species POPs on the planet, they are ruled by a collective gestalt personality that provides an additional happiness boost to all living under it's rule(but those outside can live without it), and will change it's "government Ethos" based on whatever is most common amongst it's POPs. Costs 2 'points'

This happens in the Psionic Ascendancy path and also is not a hive mind.

Hive Mind: a single undying collective consciousness controls the entire species. works as described in the Dev Diary. Costs 3 'points'

Sure.

I think the Hive Mind should start with a trait like "Natural Hive Mind" or "Biological Hive Mind" and only be able to control it's own species, not being able to rule other Hive Mind species until Gene modding in a "Expanded Hive Mind" or "Artificial Hive Mind" trait into itself, and even then they'd then need to add a "Hive Mind compatible" trait into other species to control them directly: this trait also allows the POP that has it to survive outside Hive Mind space as this trait would be in addition to rather then replacing their Mental Structure trait(allowing you to "save" or "liberate" those who have been wrongly "subjugated" by it)

Eh, I don't see why this is necessary and what it brings to the table. Hive Minds being able to conquer other hive mind pops is fine IMO and adding unnecessary complexity just seems pointless.

 

[Rip Off Productions]

This isn't a hive mind, interesting sure but it doesn't fit with actual hive minds.

that's kind of the point, it's a kind of 'social structure' between "Individuals" and the two types of "Hive Minds" that could be picked for their own set of advantages and disadvantages...

This happens in the Psionic Ascendancy path and also is not a hive mind.

Then Psionics would transition into this for free upon reaching that stage of development, if it weren't for the Dev Diary saying that Hive Minds can't do psionics I'd have assumed becoming one would have been an option for them, same goes for the.

Eh, I don't see why this is necessary and what it brings to the table. Hive Minds being able to conquer other hive mind pops is fine IMO and adding unnecessary complexity just seems pointless

I was thinking about this from a point of "how exactly does one Hive Mind take over another Hive Mind's drones?", it doesn't make sense to me that two completely different Hive Minds from completely different planets would have identical, or even remotely similar, control methods for their species, and sense Biological Ascension is the only path available for them gene modding is practically an inevitability anyway... but fine, gameplay "simplicity" takes priority I suppose.

I mean It's already going to be a thing that a Hive Mind will need to Gene mod all the non-HM POPs it wants to keep around, so why not also have a first step with modding itself to exert control over alien bodies?