Two ways to improve leader capacity scaling in the late game

[Dr Pippy]

There have been a number of threads arguing (persuasively, IMO) that the current version of the leader cap is overly restrictive, and that it seems particularly ill-suited for the kind of larger empires that tend to develop in larger galaxy settings. I've been thinking about ways to address this issue that are consistent with the stated goals of the developers, and in coming up with ideas have been trying to keep three key parameters in mind:

1. The number of leaders in the early game should be unaffected, as this seems to be about where the developers want it to be.
2. The leader cap should be significantly expanded in the later game, as this seems to be where it feels most restrictive.
3. Larger empires should have a harder time staying under leader cap than smaller empires.

So here are two ideas that, taken together, satisfy these conditions:

Pop-scaling leader capacity:

As has been suggested elsewhere, you should receive a bonus to your leader cap based on empire population. However, this should not scale linearly: larger empires should have fewer leaders per capita than smaller empires. Something like this might work:​

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bonusLeaders = floor(sqrt(pops)/10)​

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So you'd get your first extra leader slot when you hit 100 pops, then another at 400, 900, 1600, etc. The divisor on the bottom can be tweaked to find the right balance; e.g., with 5 instead of 10 you'd get extra leader slots when your pops hit 25, 100, 225, 400, etc.​

Leader capacity repeatable tech:

There should be a late-game repeatable tech in the Society tree that increases your leader capacity by 0.2. Since (I assume) the fractional piece wouldn't count, this would provide an additional leader slot every 5 levels. So a player that really wanted to put a governor on every planet would eventually be able to do this, but at the cost of a massive tech investment, and also at the cost of developing other society repeatables like +unity, +lifespan, and the bonuses to strike craft.​

These would require some balance checks in a few other areas; the most obvious example is Champions of the Empire, where you'd need to adjust the -2% empire size per governor to account for the larger number of governors that you can get. Something like a flat -X empire size per governor rather than -X% would probably be a good idea on principle anyway.

 

[Nakkivene]

I'd also like it if the special paragorns didn't count toward leader cap. You want them because they're shiny but having to fire the hero of the empire who has served for 130 years seems wrong and uncool.

 

[RoverStorm]

Pop-scaling leader capacity:

As has been suggested elsewhere, you should receive a bonus to your leader cap based on empire population. However, this should not scale linearly: larger empires should have fewer leaders per capita than smaller empires. Something like this might work:bonusLeaders = floor(sqrt(pops)/10)So you'd get your first extra leader slot when you hit 100 pops, then another at 400, 900, 1600, etc. The divisor on the bottom can be tweaked to find the right balance; e.g., with 5 instead of 10 you'd get extra leader slots when your pops hit 25, 100, 225, 400, etc.

My suggestion remains:

Max Planet Capitals (T4 for most empires, T2 for Hives and Voidborne) should allow a planet to build one "leader capacity increasing" building, which will be disabled if the number of pops drops below the amount needed to upgrade to this capital tier.

Here's the original post I had, by no means "this is what we must do" just as proof of concept:

Spoiler

I don't really know what you mean, but if you mean "Leader Cap scaled with Empire size", I think it's a good idea. Here's my suggestion:

BASE Leader cap is enough to fill your council, plus 3 (one for science ship scientist, one for starting governor, leaving one open slot for probably a scientist)
T4 Capital Planets can build a single "leader building" with the following options:
Sector Administration: +1 leader(governor, if segregated leader caps are introduced) cap, governor of this planet will apply planetary traits to all planets (without their own governor) in sector. Limit 1 per sector (duh)
Planetary Specialization Center: +1 leader cap (+1 governor), planetary traits that "match" the planet's designation will have additional effects
Staff Headquarters: +1 leader cap (+1 "free"), planet cannot be assigned a governor (can still benefit from sector governor)
Noble Estates (yes this already exists): +1 Noble Job, +1 Housing, +1 leader cap (+1 governor), governor costs unity to unassign, but if sector capital and non-capital sector planet has this or any upgrade, the planet benefits from both planet governor and sector governor simultaneously.
Illustrious Noble Estates (upgraded from Noble Estates): +1 Noble Job, +2 Noble Servant Jobs, +3 Housing, +2 leader cap (+2 governor), governor costs alot of unity to reassign, but allows a second governor position for this planet. The original governor will apply planetary traits to all planets in sector. Limit 1 per sector.
Orbital Noble Estates (also exists): Same as Noble Estates but with an additional +1 Noble job and +1 Housing, and on an Orbital Ring
Orbital Illustrious Noble Estates: Same as Illustrious Noble Estates, but with an additional +1 Noble Job and +2 Noble Servant Jobs and +3 Housing, and on an Orbital Ring
Eternal Executive Center: For "Permenent Employment". +1 leader cap (+1 "free"). Any leader may be "assigned" to this planet, although non-governors will not apply any bonus and not prevent sector governor's from applying their bonus. Upon death of this planet's assigned leader, that leader is resurrected with a "Zombie" trait.

EDIT: All of these except the Noble Estates and EEC would require to maintain 50 pops (the amount necessary to upgrade the capital building to T4) or they will be disabled. This is to prevent the cheese that works on upgrading the capital building with temporarily re-settled pops. Noble Estates would have the current requirements (a fief needs a lord much earlier than actual administration would demand) but Illustrious Noble Estates still have the T4 requirement. EEC would have the same requirements as "Posthumous Employment Center".

 

[Enero]

Leaders should not be spammable. Also, it is better to remove fleet cap or make a fleet admiral to affect admiral-less fleets in the same system.

 

[Me_]

Leader capacity repeatable tech:

There should be a late-game repeatable tech in the Society tree that increases your leader capacity by 0.2. Since (I assume) the fractional piece wouldn't count, this would provide an additional leader slot every 5 levels. So a player that really wanted to put a governor on every planet would eventually be able to do this, but at the cost of a massive tech investment, and also at the cost of developing other society repeatables like +unity, +lifespan, and the bonuses to strike craft.​

Why not just have a 5x more expensive tech that gives a full +1? +0.2 leader capacity sounds like a tech an average player would skip.

 

[IcyFalcon98777]

There are in fact multiple solutions to the problem, though I'm personally simply not going to agree with the developers' intent here. Since they haven't changed the core nature of the need for scientists, the solution I would put forward for the scientist part of this equation is to have scientists have their own pool in equal size to what we currently have. Is that a massive change to what the developers have currently? Yep. Don't care. Other people have already stated just how important scientists still are and artificially imposing a limit on leaders doesn't change that. You can't convince me to consistently play tall with an artificial limit like that, I'm simply going to mod the limit away.

As to governors, the solution is also simple: starting with the planetary administration building, a governor that is situated on a planet with such a building gets a reduction to how much that particular governor counts towards the leader limit: 1/4 for planetary administration, 1/2 for planetary capital, and full discount for system capital complex. You're not going to have a system capital complex on every planet (simply because of pop growth limits), but every planet that does have one should be able to have a free governor. And you only get the "discount" if you actually make the "purchase" (i.e. you actually employ the governor on a planet with said building).

Bam, 90% of the problem solved. Wide empires are still limited, scientists are free to do as they need without being completely spammed, and you've still got to balance the "need" for extra governors with the "need" for extra admirals. Generals can go cry in the dirt since Paradox hates them anyways (sorry, getting a little sarcastic at the end there).

 

[Dr Pippy]

Why not just have a 5x more expensive tech that gives a full +1? +0.2 leader capacity sounds like a tech an average player would skip.

That'd be fine too; I was just assuming that it's easier to keep the tech costs for repeatables consistent. Either way, 4-5 levels worth of repeatable tech seems about right, regardless of how it's distributed.

 

[julianjaynes222]

While I don't mind repeatables for leader cap, I feel strongly that they are not a solution to anything in and of themselves. Repeatables shouldn't be considered part of the core gameplay experience, given that they are quite explicitly filler content for post-endgame.

 

[Dr Pippy]

Leaders should not be spammable.

Why not, if my society chooses to invest enough to make them spammable?

But the purpose of my suggestion is less spammability and more scalability; 10-12 leaders is pretty restrictive even for a relatively small late-game empire.

 

[Enero]

Why not, if my society chooses to invest enough to make them spammable?

But the purpose of my suggestion is less spammability and more scalability; 10-12 leaders is pretty restrictive even for a relatively small late-game empire.

Leader cap works as a tall feature as well.

You can get a tradition that increases leader cap.

Though I think that the system is still not working well as diplomats are not included and useless generals are still present.

 

[Ryika]

Why not, if my society chooses to invest enough to make them spammable?

Leveling them all up would become quite annoying I think. I do agree that the current amount of leaders right now is too small compared to what you "need" to be comfortable, but I do not think scaling them with empire size would be a good idea.

 

[HFY]

Why not just have a 5x more expensive tech that gives a full +1? +0.2 leader capacity sounds like a tech an average player would skip.

Maybe if it did something else *AND* gave +0.2 leader cap? Then it the leader cap bonus could fit into an existing tech.

 

[Dr Pippy]

Maybe if it did something else *AND* gave +0.2 leader cap? Then it the leader cap bonus could fit into an existing tech.

+1-2% leader XP gain?