Two-way relation system

[unmerged(5746)]

One thing that I've experienced and find pretty annoying in Europa Universalis is that over time, all relations between you and other countries, specially in your geographical area tend to drop. I tried playing Austria once on the grand campaigne. The goal was to annex bohemia (I know that all catholic relations drop then) and then just act diplomaticaly by forming alliances and vassalizing smaller german countries. In all ways, I tried to improve all bad relations and keeping those that were already good. This failed quite quickly... not because of me, the only thing I did to ruin relations was by compeating in trade centers (which is a really stupid rule btw... loosing 5 relation for every lost merchant.. that is far too much). The relations droped because of other countries actions. I started the game with about 100+ in relation to Spain and it dropped to about 5+ in a few years because they annexed Napoli and Navarra. And since the AI never tries to improve relations with you by sending gifts, the only way you can really improve the relations again is by spending your own money. Why?? Why should I be forced to do that because another nation screwed up?? No reason at all... So I propose this, tell me if you like it or not:
There are two relations... it indicates what you feel for the other nation and what they feel for you. Now an example: Spain annexes Navarra. Austria consider this to be a despicable act and they loose 80 in relation to spain. spain however, have no reason to quarrel with austria and their relation stays the same. Atleast for a while... if two nations relations differ too much, then they should close at somewhere around the avarage, over time. So if Frances realtion to Spain is -120 and Spains to France is +10, they should, in time end up at about -55, if they don't do anything to change it more.
Thx for reading... I know it got a bit long.

 

[unmerged(3236)]

Good idea, i have also seen this problem.
It would be quite nice to have something similar in the mage.

 

[ShrineGuard]

If you simply leave relations alone, they are sure to decline...Simply because a nation will 'forget' you and you will fall out of their favor.

 

[unmerged(5599)]

This is a problem in EU. I like playing Portugal and it is tough to buy friendship early in the game with thier weak economy. Like originaly stated, if I do not care that Spain annexed Navarra, why should our relations drop? It is a small problem, but still a problem.

 

[unmerged(5746)]

as it is now, it's really impossible to have more then a few good realtions after 100 years of playing... it has to be fixed.

 

[unmerged(589)]

What I find the most strange about diplomacy in EU1 is that there is no deceit. That's not the diplomacy we all know and love! I have posted about this several times in the past. I think that there should be 3 or 4 relationship values. One, the true feelings of A->B. Two, the true feelings of B->A. These would of course be secret. Three, the official relationship, either one common or two separate. These 3 or 4 relationship values could sometimes all be the same of course, that depends on the situation. This would let you lie and cheat your opponents, much like the real history. I'm not going into the details of this system since it is just a dream anyway.

 

[unmerged(3663)]

A first lieutenant without a shield....
Well anyway, I do like the system. The main problem would be managing your relations with other nations! "Well, I like them, not them, I hate them..." Imagine going over that with over 100 nations!

 

[ShrineGuard]

Wow, that is intresting...I've never seen anyone without a shield and with over 100 posts...Why don't you have an avatar, Brain?

 

[unmerged(589)]

As this thread seems to prove, you stand out more without a shield. Plus I don't really know which shield I would use.

 

[unmerged(589)]

Originally posted by Conquerer
A first lieutenant without a shield....
Well anyway, I do like the system. The main problem would be managing your relations with other nations! "Well, I like them, not them, I hate them..." Imagine going over that with over 100 nations!

I'm not really sure what you mean, but in the case of human-controlled countries the "true feelings" could be all in the player's head, ie needing no explicit value. Or did you mean something else?

 

[Owl]

relation system

I'm not sure that a two-way relationship system would work, or would add very much even if it did. The single score just reflects the overall level of warmth / hostility between them and affects the probability of success in a diplomatic move, the chances of one declaring war on the other, etc.

It doesn't make sense that relationships always deteriorate if you dont take action to improve them. Don't they gradually shift towards the middle "completely neutral" position? Unless of course you're the global Bad Boy.

As for the avatar issue - come join the rebels!

 

[unmerged(4828)]

I agree on the basic thing here, it is to easy to get real enmity towards you.
Maybe there should be a limit like - 90 or - 100.
After you have fallen so low you need to do really bad stuff to fall further.
This does not include traders and such but annexing,starting wars etc.

 

[unmerged(589)]

Re: relation system

Originally posted by Owl
I'm not sure that a two-way relationship system would work, or would add very much even if it did. The single score just reflects the overall level of warmth / hostility between them and affects the probability of success in a diplomatic move, the chances of one declaring war on the other, etc.

It doesn't make sense that relationships always deteriorate if you dont take action to improve them. Don't they gradually shift towards the middle "completely neutral" position? Unless of course you're the global Bad Boy.

As for the avatar issue - come join the rebels!

About the Avatar: Sorry, I'm from the generation (children of the 60s hippie generation) that rebel by NOT rebelling.

Edit: Avatar with a capital A? Too much Ultima over the years...

 

[unmerged(5746)]

The main problem of this is that relations drop to quick... and they drop by compeating in trading, which I think is really worthless... ok that they drop but they drop far too quick.
and if spain would choose to annex navarra and our relation would drop from say +100 to -34 and I want them in my alliance, they wont accept because THEY did something bad... in a real situation like this, they would have no reason at all to refuse. They still like me but I don't like them... but I might want to have them in the alliance anyway... that's where this relationsthing starts to become annoying.

 

[unmerged(4828)]

I agree to this reasoning to some extent, specially on the trader point.
On the other hand the relations system is not just for you as the grey eminens, I suspect it shows what the people in the country you play think.
So if Spain grabs Cologne the nobles and such in your country might resent that and
fail to see the good sides of an alliance with Spain.
One thing that I think might be done to help you as a player in this situation is to
have some % possibility that Spain indeed tries to improve their relation to you, the player after such an act.
This should only happen after annexations and if you had a positive relation before this (
they consider you as someone they want to have on their side).

 

[Smiffus]

On the relations sliding back to 0 over time:

I always thought that 0 relations was an indication that you had neutral relations with that country. IMO this should be the 'standard' relation between 2 countries i.e. if you don't put any effort (gifts, RMs) into the relation it will slide back to neutral. Nations could not and did not have good (+100 or more) relations with every other country in the EU time period (or in any other for that matter). I like the system as it is.

 

[Owl]

Originally posted by Smiffus
On the relations sliding back to 0 over time:

I always thought that 0 relations was an indication that you had neutral relations with that country. IMO this should be the 'standard' relation between 2 countries i.e. if you don't put any effort (gifts, RMs) into the relation it will slide back to neutral.

If that isn't the current system, it should be.

 

[unmerged(5389)]

i think this is a phenomenal idea and i have thought about it many times myself. paradox, you should really start leaking information, we're getting pissed here