Two religion-related matters

[SamStarrett]

I would think that the Patriarch (and the Pope) would regard Coptic Christianity as heresy, given their rejection of the Council of Chalcedon. While they may not have (or continue) to see themselves as Monophysites, that's how the orthodox churches saw them (incorrectly, I guess). I think it's better as it is now, so I'm not complaining, but the previous setup was accurate to an extent, at least from the Catholic and Orthodox position. But they would probably regard Miaphysites as heretics in the same way they regard Arians as heretics; rejection of an Ecumenical Council was no small thing.

All the Christian religions is heresy of Orthodoxy!!1!

Honestly, though, the distinction between "X as heresy of religion Y" and "X as separate religion in the same group" seems rather bizarre if it's meant to be indicative of something inherent to the religion. I know very little about the heresy mechanics in this game, but if it's anything like EU3, heresies are just religions the devs spent less time on. When they release a patch/DLC giving that particular creed more love, it gets promoted to a "full" religion.

 

[Effixel]

As a catholic I do believe that Paradox makes a very good job on religions, being respectful as showing flaws in everyone of them. That's a sign of intelligence to me. I do agree that the "Jesus is talking in my head" can feel offensive, but I think it is actually true that some mad people do dangerous and harmful stuff because they thought that God ordered them to do so (e.g. Charles Manson).
To go a bit further in the topic of "God's Revelations", you may want to know that when someone claims that God or Jesus or a Saint has appeared/talked to them, the Church is actually very careful with that and it takes a long time before they declare (or not) these revelations as genuine.

Now, if you want to play a game that is really anti-christian, try Assassin's Creed II.

 

[Cainrae]

Watch out that this doesn't turn into a religious discussion instead of an actual discussion about the subject questioned. NewbieOne my suggestion would be to either make a mod that changes it, or request for someone to do it. Most people seem content with the current layout and it's doubtful that Paradox will change it.

 

[Wallain]

That we have any religion in this game insults my agnostic-atheism. We should simply have one religion called "We don't know really".

 

[Miinda]

My five cents.
This game makes it quite clear that there is nothing supernatural going on in this game world.
Wherether there is a God/Odin/Allah/Big bear spirit in the real world or not is up for ourselves to decide, but in the game, there obviously is NOT any supernatural forces.
It shows very clearly that the church is a place of politics, not spirituality, where you outmanouver religious leaders that you do not like and use holy wars to steal your neighbours lands. When you have a gasleak you throw down some animal sacrifice or possibly even your first born to still "the demons from hell", even though it is obvious to the player that it simply a natural thing going on.
The possesed trait is a trait that shows that your character -believes- himself to be possesed, when he in fact is just mad. It is a roleplaying trait. How this can be offensive to [insert religious group] I do not understand, unless you are nitpicking. In CKI you would get events like this aswell, "The angels talk to me", just like historical characters of this time period did, one of the more famous ones being Jean D'Arc.

As for the mark of being a bastard I personally do not see any reason to change it. It has been explained over and over that an upside down cross is not a satanistic symbol.

I mean there may be greater reasons to be 'upset' about this game as a [insert religious group]. Why not get upset at how catholisism is declared a heresy if you mend the great schism as the byzantines, or that all muslim leaders suffer from decadence or that you can sleep with your own family members with only a slight piety loss? Or hell that you can commit suicide at the push of a button?

In short:
No, we can't nitpick and cuddle with every religious group that finds it offensive that things are like x and y. It is a game. It is easy to mod and change things that you do not like yourself.

Have a nice day! :3

 

[FabiusBile]

The Op actually thinks you can be possessed by Jesus in which case it is a "good" posession and thus he feels offended by a video game that does not remove the posession effect from an in game character when the game tells you that Jesus is talking to him. I hope he does not hear voices himself.

We should not listen to a word such a person says and instead refer him to the westboro baptist chruch, where deeply religious and confused people like him belong. What comes next, removing the queer attribute because it offends devout christians as well that think this is only a "sickness" and thus shoud have a mtth to go away?

 

[Effixel]

Also, I love how this thread is full of clichés.

 

[Lord Finnish]

This game lets you murder your own children. And some damn cross is what offends you?

 

[Mamluk]

I'm not very religious but I still think it's admirable that they're being respectful and impartial towards all religions, I was pleasantly surprised when I saw that they had censored Muhammed's portrait for example. I don't think people should dwell on irrelevant things like these though, Jesus isn't going to strike you down because you're playing a game where the trait icon for illegitimate children has an upside down cross.

 

[FietsPomp]

People here are severely overreacting.

 

[Jeltz]

I'm not very religious but I still think it's admirable that they're being respectful and impartial towards all religions, I was pleasantly surprised when I saw that they had censored Muhammed's portrait for example. I don't think people should dwell on irrelevant things like these though, Jesus isn't going to strike you down because you're playing a game where the trait icon for illegitimate children has an upside down cross.

I have to agree that Paradox have done their best to be respectful when it comes to all religions (the Catholic heresies could use some love though, but I think all of them are dead today). I especially liked the way the censored Muhammed by using his calligraphic representation. That way it adds to the immersion and does not just look like "we only censor him to avoid angry muslims".

 

[Cainrae]

This game lets you murder your own children. And some damn cross is what offends you?

This is the best statement in this thread.

 

[Gwyn ap Nud]

As a side-note, images of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) are allowed and in fact common in some regions. It's addressed in some Hadith, not in the Qur'an. As such, many Iranian Shi'a families will have a portrait of the Prophet Muhammad in their house. Little interesting fact. Islam is not a monolithic entity, as many of us in the West see it as...

 

[A_Dane]

Watch out that this doesn't turn into a religious discussion instead of an actual discussion about the subject questioned. NewbieOne my suggestion would be to either make a mod that changes it, or request for someone to do it. Most people seem content with the current layout and it's doubtful that Paradox will change it.

Pretty sure it's too late for that now..

Anyways, this seems to really be a minor issue to me in the first place...

 

[tuareg109]

lets just remove all religions from the game, theyre too offenceive.

Or how about people should stop being offended when their belief in fairies is put into question.

So, this means that infanticide is okay though, right? I am going to go make a thread whining about that right now.

Excellent. +100 to you.
Also, can we now imprison and execute courtiers that are not of our religion?
Can we force a woman who is carrying a heathen's child to miscarry?
Can we stone people who wear mixed fabrics?
Or eat shellfish (lots of Greeks are gonna die, I guess)?
Where does it end NewbieOne, where does it end?

 

[Prime624]

Or how about people should stop being offended when their belief in fairies is put into question.

I think he was being sarcastic.

 

[Sarog]

Wow people sure love hyperbole. Disagree with an OP and it is all aboard the overreaction train to slippery slope fallacy station.

 

[Arizal]

Although I describe myself as a pantheist/agnostic, I think some people are over-reacting in this thread. We can disagree, but please stay calm and don't take it personal. I actually like the little explanation about St-Peter cross and the pentagram, I didn't checked that myself.

About heresies, a thing that could add flavor in the game would be to paint all other related religions as heresies when you are playing one. The bigger group would be christians, muslims, pagans, jews, and whatever religion you would have would be described as the true religion. For example, an orthodox ruler would see catholicism as an heresy even before bending the schism. You could even add "infidel" for broader group like "Abrahamic religions". That way you would see if you are playing a successful Bomomilist emperor the catholics and orthodoxs as heretics, the muslims as infidels and the pagans as heatens.

But this is seriously outside the scope of this thread.

 

[yodaime]

I honestly recommend locking this thread. Apparently all the Atheist's here act like mad fanatics towards anybody who admits he's religious. I mean, I'm not religious myself, but this is simply disgusting. What's wrong with him believing in his religion? If he finds it offensive for bastard icon to have inverted cross and there's more viable solution, what's the problem with that? I love people assuming everything certain religions believe in is "fairy tails", such an irony, hating religion while at same time doing the same thing you think is "bad" in it.

Anyway, there should be some sort of distinguishing between events, I mean, a character with "possessed" trait, which has a trident in it, having what christian church considered "legitimate" visions, isn't particularly politically correct. Honestly, I don't care what people believe in, but I think it's best to avoid offending anyone, especially considering they paid for the game. If someone enjoys hating religions/church or whatever, he can mod those contents in himself.

 

[Isaios]

As a side-note, images of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) are allowed and in fact common in some regions. It's addressed in some Hadith, not in the Qur'an. As such, many Iranian Shi'a families will have a portrait of the Prophet Muhammad in their house. Little interesting fact. Islam is not a monolithic entity, as many of us in the West see it as...

In addition to the (several) Hadith dealing with this, there's the ban on idolatry in the Qur'an. And amusingly, there are relatively large Muslim groups which see the very ban on depicting the Prophet AS IDOLATRY! That's such an interesting theological view. Brilliant really.

Although I describe myself as a pantheist/agnostic, I think some people are over-reacting in this thread. We can disagree, but please stay calm and don't take it personal. I actually like the little explanation about St-Peter cross and the pentagram, I didn't checked that myself.

About heresies, a thing that could add flavor in the game would be to paint all other related religions as heresies when you are playing one. The bigger group would be christians, muslims, pagans, jews, and whatever religion you would have would be described as the true religion. For example, an orthodox ruler would see catholicism as an heresy even before bending the schism. You could even add "infidel" for broader group like "Abrahamic religions". That way you would see if you are playing a successful Bomomilist emperor the catholics and orthodoxs as heretics, the muslims as infidels and the pagans as heatens.

But this is seriously outside the scope of this thread.

That might be a good solution, but not sure how it'd be implemented.

EDIT: @59 yes, yes I'm literally frothing at the mouth to get at them filthy religious people I am! Do try to limit the hyperbole, please.