Two religion-related matters

[unmerged(596352)]

this is tranforming into an anti christian thread.Jews from around the world unite ))(sarcastic)

Please somone close this thread

 

[NewbieOne]

The cross on the bastard trait has nothing to do with satanism. It means the child is unworthy to be the heir and presents the cross of St. Peter.

What's the connection between the cross of St. Peter other than the abstract realisation about unworthiness? (Yes, St. Peter's cross was used by Popes even as late in the unification wars around 1860 on the tomb plate of a papal soldier, it is not a taboo symbol in traditional Catholicism at all, while the most modern usage as the general public has different connotations.) Was there a custom of denoting bastards with St. Peter's cross that I simply don't know about?

i bet if a jew was insulted every one would start supporting him

But when a christian says something he s being "sensitive"

Yup, there is a trend like that. Look what happens when a satirical presentation is made of something connected with a different religion or outlook or when someone tells a joke about a minority: diversity policy tends to kick in with a vengeance unless it's about something relating to Christianity, in which case it's politically incorrect (and infringing of other's rights etc.) to have any sort of problem with it.

Are you claiming no one is mentally ill and claims that the voices in their head are Jesus speaking to them? Really?

I'm afraid you didn't read with understanding.

Even if you believe there are people specially picked for favoritism by [God-of-choice] that doesn't mean others aren't wrong about it.

Nope. I was saying that someone believing that God's speaking to him can be possessed (the game presumes Christian theology and please don't pretend it doesn't, the characters don't live in a neutral, ideologically neutered world)--obviously when he's wrong about the origin of the voices he hears, in which case he's most likely simply mentally ill, while there is some margin of possibility of possession. On the other hand, if he's right (i.e. he's having apparitions), then he's not "possessed", as in demonical possession. It's basically two different kinds of things.

It's also known that most people that are Schizophrenic aren't diagnosed as such because their voices tell them to do good, not bad, so it never becomes a concern.

Again, I was talking about a different thing. Not "mentally ill" or "lunatic" but "possessed".

FYI the upside-down Cross (St. Peter) only very recently became "anti-Christian".

Yes, but there's no obvious specific reason to connect St. Peter's cross with bastardy.

"The origin of this symbol comes from the Catholic tradition that Simon Peter was crucified upside down, as told by Origen of Alexandria. The tradition first appears in the "Martyrdom of Peter", a fragmented text found in, but possibly predating, the apocryphal Acts of Peter, which was written no later than 200 A.D. It is believed that Peter requested this form of crucifixion as he felt he was unworthy to be crucified in the same manner that Jesus died. As such, some Catholics use this cross as a symbol of humility and unworthiness in comparison to Jesus."

Again, that doesn't connect with bastardy.

You being offended =/= You being able to impede others' rights and fun

How exactly is a polite request to use the heraldic baton of bastardy instead of the invented cross impeding other's rights or fun?

just because you're not knowledgeable enough about this time period

Assumptions anyone.

Get out, your entire attitude offends me and is frankly disgusting.

That's very well mannered and emotionally stable of you.

So, this means that infanticide is okay though, right?

Logic?

this is tranforming into an anti christian thread.Jews from around the world unite ))(sarcastic)

Please somone close this thread

Thank your for reacting to some of the stuff above but please leave the Jews alone.

I think the Jews weren't added because when each character in a province is from a religion, then this province become of that religion. So to avoid things like a Jew HRE, they decided it was indeed too unplausible to let Jews exist in the game. Even if they had forbidden landing non-christian/muslim characters, a Jew courtier serving to educate could have changed the religion of a kingdom. This is a questionable choice, but it is understandable. I think some mods bring them back.

As for possession and Jesus, as someone said, this event is "good". Since you are a believer, you only have to think that "possessed" trait means rather "influenced by unknown forces". I think there are no need to change the name of this trait, however, since possessed is just a generic name. You could think Jesus was "possessed" by the knowledge that he was the son of God as well, so for me this isn't something that necesarilly need exorcism.

Well, the trait icon is the pitchfork and "possession" is more than just "influenced". I'm more concerned about the distinction blurring between divine or demonical origins of what's happening to the person (which is not to say that the two can't be confused by the affected person or by others).

As for the Jews, I miss them. It kinda doesn't feel the same if you don't have any. On the other hand, the choice is understandable because the alternative would need to be blocking quite a large range of immature player choices (meaning persecutions and mockery here, not even Jewish rulers, which did happen for the Khazars and, according to legends, a certain line of pre-chivalric nobility near Narbonne).

 

[Nuril]

Nope. I was saying that someone believing that God's speaking to him can be possessed (the game presumes Christian theology and please don't pretend it doesn't, the characters don't live in a neutral, ideologically neutered world)--obviously when he's wrong about the origin of the voices he hears, in which case he's most likely simply mentally ill, while there is some margin of possibility of possession. On the other hand, if he's right (i.e. he's having apparitions), then he's not "possessed", as in demonical possession. It's basically two different kinds of things.

Possessions aren't real, so all of them are mental illness being used as roleplaying material. Also note how you had to add "Demonic" to it. Just because it's commonly used in that context doesn't mean it's exclusively used in that context, as the word has broader meaning. Speaking in tongues is often referred to as possession by the Holy Spirit, for instance.

I agree about the trait-icon not fitting for when it uses "Jesus" or the like, of course, but are you sure the event isn't just rigged to use one of the automated deities in religion.txt? I seriously doubt Tengriists that end up Possessed would start to hear Jesus talking to them. Although the demonic icon makes more sense in that case.

Again, I was talking about a different thing. Not "mentally ill" or "lunatic" but "possessed".

Again, magic isn't real. I was extending a courtesy by offering a potential situation where-in-which the language would be applicable both ways. They're all mentally ill or mistaken.

Yes, but there's no obvious specific reason to connect St. Peter's cross with bastardy.

Again, that doesn't connect with bastardy.

Yeah, it makes so much more sense to instantly leap to Satanism! Something which 1) There is practically no evidence for even existing outside some very tangentially related modern ideologies and where the investigated cases of crime said to have involved "Satanism" almost always turn out to be Exorcisms gone bad or just not connected at all, and 2) where no one prior to extremely modern times would have used that symbol anyway!

No, no. They must've been going for "Satanism", not "Unworthiness" in the Catholic tradition for something specifically designating not being worthy to inherit!

 

[Comradebot]

Im Asatru, and I find the fact that rulers of my religion are destroyed by Christian Holy Wars by 1100 and that were not playable highly offensive. Starting the game as a Norse religioned ruler should just give you 100k free prestige and cause all the world to swear fealty to Odin. Anything less is offensive.

 

[gimel]

As for 'marks of bastards', I can't recall one common to Spain, France, Germany and England (these being crusading kingdoms par excellence). As far as I understand polish heraldry doesn't know any such marks (we were always a bit strange, coats shared by dozens unrelated families etc.), neither does hungarian. If you find inverted crosses offensive to your taste, feel free to mod them out. I believe they were simply copied from good old CKI (?DV?).
As for "Jesus whispers to me" for possessed people - I'm afraid I'm no exorcist, so I can't verify this, but trying to pass for heavenly forces would seem to be preferred modus operandi for demons, according to catholic doctrine (vide controversies surrounding Medjugorje). So, yeah. It seems obvious that at least some schizophrenics/possessed (possesion being WHO-recognized disorder, mind you!) honestly believe(d) it is(/was) Savior talking to them.
As for good ol' "I'm offended ergo Christianity (my faith as a whole) is offended" fallacy, I can only reply "hit the road, Jack". As a christian I have become saddly accustomed to trolls having no respect to my faith and calling me weirdo/fanatic/s**thead/whatnot. You, my friend, need to develop thicker skin, otherwise you will end up as their food.
As for religious offensiveness of CKII, I was, until recently, enraged to see Copts and Armenians heresy of Orthodoxy. Not anymore, thanks PI!

 

[Isaios]

As for religious offensiveness of CKII, I was, until recently, enraged to see Copts and Armenians heresy of Orthodoxy. Not anymore, thanks PI!

I agree with most of what you said, but especially this! (Also why I'm cautious about the idea of making Shi'a a heresy of Sunni...) Having a mechanism for Heresy does open for some interesting problems.

 

[Jeltz]

I agree with most of what you said, but especially this! (Also why I'm cautious about the idea of making Shi'a a heresy of Sunni...) Having a mechanism for Heresy does open for some interesting problems.

Well, CKII has Ibadi (the majority religion in Oman) as a Sunni heresy. Today Sh'ia, Sunni, and Ibadi are regarded as three distinct branches of Islam, but back then I would guess a Sunni Imam would regard both Ibadi and Shi'a as heresies.

While I do not think in 1066 the Patriarch in Constantinople regarded the Coptic Pope as a heretic. What is a heresy and what is an accepted branch seems mostly to be a matter of time.

 

[unmerged(456184)]

Stop being so sensitive. There are ugly facts in life that we just have to deal with.

I'd be inclined toward this position if this also wasn't the game that went out of its way to not offend Muslims with a character portrait of Muhammad. Clearly Paradox does consider religious sensibilities in their design.

 

[Isaios]

Well, CKII has Ibadi (the majority religion in Oman) as a Sunni heresy. Today Sh'ia, Sunni, and Ibadi are regarded as three distinct branches of Islam, but back then I would guess a Sunni Imam would regard both Ibadi and Shi'a as heresies.

While I do not think in 1066 the Patriarch in Constantinople regarded the Coptic Pope as a heretic. What is a heresy and what is an accepted branch seems mostly to be a matter of time.

That was my point It's relatively safe with Fraticelli, Iconoclasts (if the movement could be said to actually BE something, in the same manner as Anarchism) and Catharists (as they were effectively wiped out), but doing the same with established religions of today is a bit ... iffy. We've got Druzes as heretics as well, and it's not like that poor group needs more grief. So while I'd find the gameplay mechanisms of Shi'a as a Heresy to be desireable, I'm rather sceptical about its implementation. (Speaking of religious issues, have you seen how they dealt with picturing the Prophet? Very Nicely done I think. EDIT: Apparently someone had, and I didn't notice XD )

 

[Nuril]

I'd be inclined toward this position if this also wasn't the game that went out of its way to not offend Muslims with a character portrait of Muhammad. Clearly Paradox does consider religious sensibilities in their design.

To be fair, while that's pretty much for sure why the block is on there, it's also culturally correct for when you're playing Muslims, so in a game like this it's also flavour. It'd be dumb if the setting was during the time he lived though, as if he just didn't have a face.

 

[Ols]

Muslims continue to view the respective branches as heresies. I don't think it's offensive to have it set up that way, as long as the major sects of Sunni and Shia both have balanced features.

Setting a game during Muhammad's lifetime would be inflammatory in other ways than how his portrait appears. If his life is lived differently or if the flavour events allow deviation, it would seem as if the player is allowed to challenge Allah's divine plan. Having him die of smallpox before he can proclaim the Qu'ran would be somewhat bemusing for any Muslim.

I strongly disagree with both points raised in the thread. Possessed is a historically accurate way to describe mental illness in the character that leads to hearing voices, while having an inverted cross is more commonly associated with St Peter than it is with the devil (having it associated with the devil is an innovation which is unhelpful and unorthodox in understanding its symbolism.)

 

[Prime624]

I'd be inclined toward this position if this also wasn't the game that went out of its way to not offend Muslims with a character portrait of Muhammad. Clearly Paradox does consider religious sensibilities in their design.

That because Paradox thought that Christians would be more reasonable. Apparently they didn't take into account people like this. But every religion has its NewbieOne's. Christianity has more just because it had more people. You never hear a Jew complaining because you rarely hear a Jew at all.

 

[Prime624]

Please somone close this thread

Yes please.

 

[icon41gimp]

Ya'll got trolled.

 

[Prime624]

Ya'll got trolled.

Even a professional troll wouldn't spend this much time and effort on one thing. This guy is just genuinely whining about this.

 

[Romaious330]

The upside-down cross wasn't ever anti-Christian until the late 20th Century. It is a very Christian image, an image representing the manner in which St. Peter was crucified. The point isn't to be "satanic" or "anti-Christian" but to illustrate the illegitimacy.

I actually laugh whenever I see idiots trying to be "rebellious" by spray-painting upside-down crosses, pentagrams and 666's on walls. They clearly don't know anything about what they are painting. As the upside-down cross (as i've said) is a very Christian image. The Pentagram isn't satanic and the "satanic pentagram" is actually usually upside-down. The vertical Pentagram is used by Christian communities to illustrate the 5 "wounds" of Christ, the hands, the feet and the crown of thorns. It also is used to represent God, with the Trinity as the top 3 points, and the 2 natures of Christ as the bottom two.
Also, 666 isn't a satanic number, but rather was a reference to the Emperor Nero and is symbolic of those who don't live according to Christ.

People need to learn a bit more before making quick, knee-jerk assumptions.

 

[Jak9090]

lets just remove all religions from the game, theyre too offenceive.

 

[Prime624]

lets just remove all religions from the game, theyre too offenceive.

I seriously agree.

Just kidding, but at least nobody's feelings would be hurt :happy: and then the whole world would be a better place :wub: lol

 

[Jak9090]

yeah maybe just have two classifications, a char is either religious and they follow the pope, or atheist and is a heresy of religion

 

[Theddude]

Well, CKII has Ibadi (the majority religion in Oman) as a Sunni heresy. Today Sh'ia, Sunni, and Ibadi are regarded as three distinct branches of Islam, but back then I would guess a Sunni Imam would regard both Ibadi and Shi'a as heresies.

While I do not think in 1066 the Patriarch in Constantinople regarded the Coptic Pope as a heretic. What is a heresy and what is an accepted branch seems mostly to be a matter of time.

I would think that the Patriarch (and the Pope) would regard Coptic Christianity as heresy, given their rejection of the Council of Chalcedon. While they may not have (or continue) to see themselves as Monophysites, that's how the orthodox churches saw them (incorrectly, I guess). I think it's better as it is now, so I'm not complaining, but the previous setup was accurate to an extent, at least from the Catholic and Orthodox position. But they would probably regard Miaphysites as heretics in the same way they regard Arians as heretics; rejection of an Ecumenical Council was no small thing.