Two Ideas

[Jools]

1) I think that Knightly orders should rely more on event given soldiers than the dwellers of their demesne. I mean their power was based on the fact that it was very prestigious to join a knightly order and hundreds of nobles from all over Europe signed up. Rarely did they rely on locals.

2) When I'm at war and my vassals have mobilsed independantly I think as Liege i should have the possibility to ask them to give their troops back to my command. This happened recently to me in an Iberian game when Seville ransacked my personal demesne and destroyed my army and I couldn't do a single thing about because the Duke of Castille mobilised his troops and made them sit outside of burgos while it was beseiged by the Emir...

 

[unmerged(16323)]

1) I think that Knightly orders should rely more on event given soldiers than the dwellers of their demesne. I mean their power was based on the fact that it was very prestigious to join a knightly order and hundreds of nobles from all over Europe signed up. Rarely did they rely on locals.

I agree completely. It's a sad thing to see for example the Teutonic Order springing up in one county just to be eaten alive by some pagan due to no forces.

They should get troops by events. It doesn't make a difference to them wether or not they can maintain them, the AI never cares for money. Also the number and frequency of troop grants should be tied to province count. The more land they hold the less troops they get less often.

2) When I'm at war and my vassals have mobilsed independantly I think as Liege i should have the possibility to ask them to give their troops back to my command. This happened recently to me in an Iberian game when Seville ransacked my personal demesne and destroyed my army and I couldn't do a single thing about because the Duke of Castille mobilised his troops and made them sit outside of burgos while it was beseiged by the Emir...

Yea. I always wondered why the Mobilize host stops workign after my vassal mobilizes his armies himself. However using "mobilize host" after he already called his troops should require higher loyalty than teh case of a normal mobilization.

 

[unmerged(7667)]

Perhaps some events could help a little in a not too complicated manner, like one where a christian king could be asked by the pople to contribute monetarily to an order. Contributing with troops would certainly be nice too, but I would guess that it might be much more difficult to make happen in the game engine. Anyway it would be quite natural for at least the larger christian kingdoms to have an obligation to contribute to the orders once in a while.

 

[Jools]

no i guess the pope should be left out of this... most pay church donations that go to the clergy hence the pope... the events for the orders should take this for granted.

 

[Spruce]

1) yes I Agree, I already proposed (half year ago) some "sponsorship" events, simulating the "sponspors" for those orders - like German knights going for Teutonic order and fortifiying the teutonic order and so some expansion.

And also dissolution of the sponsorship, like happened in medevial times...with great consequences for the order.

Basicly a sponsor gives money and resources (knights) to an order and then the order gets stronger and might want to dow some pagan guy.

Sponsors revoking sponsorship results in drawbacks for the order. Problem is that the engine can't remember who is sponsor and who not...

perhaps fiddling with alliances can solve problem - or vassalage ??? Why not make an order a ducal title ?

Orders in Middle East where more "defensive" keepers of the sacred sites and protectors of pelgrims,

Teutonic order was quite expansionistic and conversion minded,

2) I have to disagree. As a liege you have to choose wisely if you want your vassals fighting your dirty war - it has advantages and disadvantages. F.e. if you have a "war champion" vassal - it's very stupid to not ask his assistance in your endeavours. Basicly his high martial rating will be feed your war effort.

So you can't be too opportunistic, if a vassal targets some other nation than you - you shouldn't ruin his efforts.

 

[unmerged(7667)]

I only thought of getting the pope "involved" because the papacy was the effective creator of all these orders. I think it would be a good idea to say to the player something to the effect of "the pope would like you to contribute to this order".

 

[Grosshaus]

I´d really, really like the proposal 2.

...especially if I would also be given the option to perhaps mobilize troops of the vassals of my vassals.

 

[Spruce]

hm, reconsidering idea 2 is also great -

 

[unmerged(28966)]

Idea 1 is a good one, but shouldn't be over done. I don't think that the engine needs to consider withdrawals of support. The orders were stocked with knights and squires leaving secular life. They were for all intents permanent additions to the Order - the orders were based on strict military-monastic rules, pretty much for life. Order forces augmented allied forces rather than being augmented by rulers in various places. The fact is that there weren't really that many of them for fighting & they formed more an elite cavalry unit in Levantine Frankish armies. The Templars and Hospitalers (presume the Teutonics Knights, but don't know from any reading myself) were given permanent donations of land and sometimes money from around Europe which were administered for the purpose of funding castles and forces in the field. They also became significant sources of loans to european crowns. Anyway, I think they could have some special forms of mercenary events providing small bands of troops, and regular gold bonus events as a way of simulating the effect of these donations. The addition of a few Templar or Hospitaler lending events would be cool, what, why or how exactly, I'm not sure. To give them more of a chance, I wonder if they can be encouraged to ally with neighbouring christian realms.

I don't agree with idea # 2. Put the shoe on the other foot - the level of comlaints from people having not only their seige stolen by their leige, but their army as well, would be thunderous. In addition to which I can see potential for an easy exploit for players would be to nab a vassal's armies in time to take territory for ourselves.

Cheers

 

[unmerged(2456)]

I´d really, really like the proposal 2.

...especially if I would also be given the option to perhaps mobilize troops of the vassals of my vassals.

I reallly, really don't like proposal 2.

Now not only (when things work right) does my seige end, can the my liege jump into any war, even internal ones, can he forcibly mobilize my troops by spamming me enough till he deiceds to DoW, now he can forvible take my troops away once i've spent my hard earned cash, and would still be spending my hard earned cash, at his whim.
It'd bad enough in SP, now imagine that in MP. Oh look...you (said human vassal) are about to take that province...and look i also got a claim on it...nope! now you're my regiment and my province!

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I like number 1, will think up something.

 

[Cagliostro]

I reallly, really don't like proposal 2.

Now not only (when things work right) does my seige end, can the my liege jump into any war, even internal ones, can he forcibly mobilize my troops by spamming me enough till he deiceds to DoW, now he can forvible take my troops away once i've spent my hard earned cash, and would still be spending my hard earned cash, at his whim.
It'd bad enough in SP, now imagine that in MP. Oh look...you (said human vassal) are about to take that province...and look i also got a claim on it...nope! now you're my regiment and my province!

Yeah, but if you're trying to deal with AI vassals, sometimes they will sit around retardedly. I've had them not even move to defend their own land against enemies they could beat.

There has to be some kind of acceptable compromise.

 

[unmerged(28966)]

Yeah, but if you're trying to deal with AI vassals, sometimes they will sit around retardedly. I've had them not even move to defend their own land against enemies they could beat.

There has to be some kind of acceptable compromise.

What we're talking about is an AI issue. This is about how AI manages its troops and prioritises defence and attack - whether it will try to defeat a beseiging force before it loses a province. Some further tweaking of AI war management would help solve this and a multitude of other strange AI actions.

To solve it by giving the player control of forces like as proposed seems to me to have game breaking potential.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

And Johan is supposably working on the AI this week as well...

 

[Grell74]

With regards to point 1 it is pretty odd that there are events to give every catholic besides the orders themselves order troop events (i.e. events 900 - 902).

I have created the following (with equivalent for TEMP and HOSP (also added a marshal as when testing I noticed that often the orders would be created with 3 female courtiers and no males!!!):

#################################
# Troops for the Teutonic Order#
#################################

character_event = {
id = 914

picture = "event_templars"

trigger = {
condition = { type = is_independent }
condition = { type = title value = TEUT }
}

mean_time_to_happen = {
months = 80

modifier = {
condition = { type = atwar }
factor = 0.2
}
}

action_a = {#Deus Vult!
effect = { type = add_regiment
culture = teutonic_order
strength = {
heavy_cav = 500
heavy_inf = 500
light_cav = 200
}
}
effect = { type = prestige value = -10 }
effect = { type = create_courtier value = marshal }
}

action_b = {#The glory is ours!
effect = { type = prestige value = 10 }
effect = {
type = random
chance = 20
effect = {
type = add_trait
value = selfish
}
}
effect = {
type = random
chance = 20
effect = {
type = add_trait
value = proud
}
}
effect = {
type = random
chance = 20
effect = {
type = add_trait
value = suspicious}
}
}
}

also added this to their spawning event:

action_a = {
effect = { type = create_tag value = TEMP }
effect = { type = add_regiment country = TEMP culture = templar_knight strength = { heavy_cav = 500 heavy_inf = 1000 } }
effect = { type = culture value = templar_knight }
effect = { type = clergy_power value = 0.2 }
effect = { type = peasant_power value = -0.2 }
effect = { type = add_improvement value = templar_house }
effect = { type = ruler_piety value = 25 } #note: also allows troops event

While it is propably not very realistic for the culture to instantly change in this manner - it looks very cool to see the knighthood army sprite, and is justified in terms of gameplay I think. The troops are pretty much disbanded by the AI straight away so this line could be taken out).

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Hey, that marshal idea is good one too.

 

[Caranorn]

Just on how the orders functionned.

All of them used at least four types of fighters.

1) The orders' own knights who generally joined for life and abode by the monastic rules. Essentially the same procedure as any otehr monastic order.

2) The orders' sergeants (this includes turcopoles, squires etc.), who lived by a variation of the codes...

3) Associate knights who joined the orders for a season (some coming back yar after year). While they were with the order they lived by it's rules etc. But for all other purpouses they were your average feudal knights.

4) Mercenaries and local levies that do not fall under any of the above groups.

Group 3 played a huge role in the existance of the orders and should not be neglected, to the outsider they often would have appeared as just another member of the order as they had the right to bear the order's mantle and insignia.

Generally, the Teutonics drew their membership from the Empire, the Templars from France, England and Lotharingia (templar commanderies not only persisted in Lotharingia after the creation of the Teutonics but continued to expand...), I'm not sure on the Hospitaliers, probably mostly from England but also France (there were hospitals in Lotharingia but I don't recall any commanderies) and probably Italy, Spain and Greece... The Swordbrothers would have received the little support they still had from the Empire just like the Teutonics, the spanish orders early on from Iberia, then from some of the lands that had previously worked with the Templars (though most of their commanderies went to the Hospitaliers).

As to the game. The orders should really be vassals of the local kingdoms, probably as the equivalent of a duchy. That is they should work much like any other duchy in this respect as granting them lands did not go without feudal ties. And as it works now the orders can be picked out by muslmis separately (yes a human player can go to their aid, but the ai rarelly seems to do it, also a human player's peace won't force peace for the orders, leaving them open once again...) and thereby create an unrealistic weakness for the crusader states (worse as it can create a chain reaction, the muslims swallow an order, they petition for new lands and a foolish ai ruler hands it to them, they get swallowed again and ask anotehr ruler...). Were the orders vassals and vassalisable their lieges would go to their defense and be able to make a binding piece.

For the rest, associate knight events similar to the order knight events for other rulers would be quite nice.

P.S.: Having a liege control a vassal order's troops is not a big issue either as that's essentially what the kings of Jerusalem and later Acre did. And the situation of the Templars is best represented by an order having grown too strong and throwing off the rule of it's liege (the king of Poland), that is to say who have become sovereign as any other duke could in the game.

P.P.S.: The duke tier could of course lead to the orders having their own vassals, but that in my mind is a lesser problem compared to the dukes haing the orders as vassals issue that could arise otherwise. I really can think of no reason why the orders should exist outside the general rules of feudalism.

 

[past caring]

1) I'd like to be able to grant lands to the Orders. I don't mean when they're spamming me for land, but afterward, when they're already in existence. I don't want them to become my vassals, but I should be able to strengthen them by donating land - and maybe get a piety/prestige bonus for doing so.

Maybe this could be restricted to only being able to donate provinces adjacent to land they already hold? But there's plenty of times, particularly in crusades where I take land that I have no long term interest in keeping - this often happens where I've got no suitable court member to grant the title to.

2) A bad idea, imho. I don't really see what the fuss is about. Seems to me that if people are having problems it's because of bad management. It is currently possible to go around every one of your vassals (and vassals of vassals) and mobilize their troops province by province. There's no need to hit the "grand mobilization" button.

You can pause the game, hit "mobilize host" first so as not to take a loyalty hit and then go around and mobilize your vassals' regiments. If you want, once they are in the field, you can then disband your own desmene regiments - so you're not even paying for army upkeep. Then unpause the game.

If you don't bother to take the trouble to manually mobilize your vassals regiments and then have problems with their regiments sitting doing nothing or going for the wrong target, it's your problem.

If you can't use the above method to mobilize them manually ('cos of poor loyalty to begin with) then tough - that's one of the penalties for poor loyalty and it needs to be in the game.......

 

[Enravota]

i believe that smaller with martial cleric or martial education should be able to join the orders an event like that should do it:

#############
#your son wants to join an order
#############

if not main heir, specific culture (german for TEUT, italian or any of the iberian for HOSP and french, occitan and english for TEMP), martial cleric or martial education and catholic

action a go with my blessing: -100 gold, +100 piety, son moves to the order

action b go but without my support: +50 prestige, son moves to the order

action c if you go i'll dissown you : 50%son moves to order and gets bastard, or the other 50% gets cowerd or some other traitplay

##############
#one of your knights wants to join an order
##############

if specific culture(the same as the above), martial cleric or martial education, catholic

action a beg him to stay: -50 prestige and -50 piety for the liege, + 50 prestige for the knight

action b Deus vult!: +50 piety for liege and knight, knight moves to order.

#############
#the knights want more land
#############

if TEMP(HOSP and TEUT), TEMP is your neighbour(if it is possible to check) you hold a province tin which the order might spawn

action a they already have enough: +10 prestige, -50 piety
action b deus vult!: +200 piety, give them the province



i hope this pseudocode is understandeble

 

[unmerged(21937)]

If those events would be possible with the event effects we have now, they might already exist.