Two faces of Anglicanism

[moscal]

What is wrong with Anglicanism? Fact, that in game Anglicanism have main feature in Henry VIII style. But IRL Anglicanism had tendencies and faces of Anglicanism changed and were not similar to the Henry period.

What can there do about it?

Anglicanism had two extreme 'orthodoxy' faces.
1. Royal supremacy. In radical form Jacob I/VI done self-deification (he declare himself as god); a few anglican philosopher (eg. Hobbes) call king to creation of "king-bishop" institution.
2, Puritanism. They thought the English Reformation was not over and more waves of change were needed. Democratization of the church and social life was to be important.

Excluding individual cases, Anglicanism was between these extremes. And I think, that also in game Anglicanism can have similar things.

How this can look? I think, that this can look similar to "shinto isolationism and incidents". Start in central point, and every new incident can change position. Every position have own individual church actions and eg. extremal royal supremacy can declare himself as god or create institution king-bishop.

Examples of incidents can be connected with actions of english dissenters and continental heretics (connections with Hussites and Reformed should go to "Puritanisms branche"; with protestants should go to "Royal supremacy branche"). Other can be connected with higher lvl of administration or situations in HRE.

Modifiers? I have no idea But I think, that this more dynamic system will be better than current system, where situation from Henry VIII is constans (and still you can "Dissolve Monasteries" even if your realm haven't even 1 monastery).

BTW1 - incident connected with digger should give risk transform country into "peasent republic")
BTW2 - every greater anglican country should have risk of civil war in english style.

 

[Donlad]

I really enjoy this concept. It allows the player to develop the religion to their own accord and showcases more history than the current system in game.

We definitely need to decide what modifiers and effects would be given though.

 

[moscal]

We definitely need to decide what modifiers and effects would be given though.

I'm not good in balance and interesant modifiers combination But thank for support!

 

[moscal]

0 - puritanism
1 - presbyterianism
3 - classic anglicanism
4 - supremarism
5 - sacral monarchy

 

[Blk82]

The Anglicanism of Edward VI to at least Queen Victoria was a high church and episcopal and high church religion. However, it was still within the bounds of Protestantism, and within the Reformed tradition, at least in terms of sacramentology. There probably should be a high church versus low church mechanic, but no high churchman believed in bishop kings. The quasi-catholic Anglicanism didn't really arise until the 1830's. However, under Henry VIII, the Anglican church was basically an independent Catholic church. I could actually see England going Presbyterian, Scotland was actually Anglican/Episcopalian off and on until 1690, when bishops all refused to swear loyalty to William III. However, a Presbyterian or Puritan England is literally one and the same thing as a Reformed England.

 

[JJEmperor74]

Sure, If we're going to have the hussites in game let's have tlan optional event for the Puritans in too for those extra immersive Cromwells England playthroughs

 

[Donlad]

Great work man. Knocks out multiple birds with one stone.

 

[moscal]

There probably should be a high church versus low church mechanic, but no high churchman believed in bishop kings. The quasi-catholic Anglicanism didn't really arise until the 1830's.

For me the most important element in PDX games is fact, that we can create alt-history ways.

In reformation preiod in England were many important political doctrines. From totalitarian republicanism to theocratic despotism. And this is the most important - pure religious doctrines often havent't influence on political world. In germanic protestantism we had/have subordination of religion to the state; this favored despotism and monarchy supremacy. In reformed movement we had (later weakened) more bottom-up, republican tendencies (but omre totalitarian republicanism, not in the modern sense).

And we have anglicanism. Political doctrines, connected with religious doctrines, were protestant and reformed tendencies. In English Civil War groups fought an "ideological struggle" using Bible quotes. Based on David, Salomon, Moses, prophets and judges one side and second side create concepts "how should work good christian country". Before and after the civil war, various thoughts and ideas continued to exist. Anglicanism could have followed a different path, closer to Calvinism or closer to the davidic monarchy. Fact, that IRL anglicanism go more "restrained way" (I haven't better words on this) were caused by internal and external events in the British Isles.

I think, that my option will be more interesant, to create alt-hitorical ways. "High church vs low church" can be in praxis too similar to piety mechanism.

 

[moscal]

Sure, If we're going to have the hussites in game let's have tlan optional event for the Puritans in too for those extra immersive Cromwells England playthroughs

Create new christian branches, as separate religion in game, aren't needed. In normal situation "puritan England" can work as "reformed England" and "national church of England" as "protestant England". But if PDX create anglicanism as separate religion - this should work as interesant by gameplay and rewrite of history. Current this isn't interesant; in my region players in England play as reformed or protestant (sometimes as orthodoxy, but after losing a religious war with Russia but this was non-climatic and non-lore exploit)

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Sure, If we're going to have the hussites in game let's have tlan optional event for the Puritans in too for those extra immersive Cromwells England playthroughs

Jacobite Rebellion and Catholic resistance anyone?

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Create new christian branches, as separate religion in game, aren't needed. In normal situation "puritan England" can work as "reformed England" and "national church of England" as "protestant England". But if PDX create anglicanism as separate religion - this should work as interesant by gameplay and rewrite of history. Current this isn't interesant; in my region players in England play as reformed or protestant (sometimes as orthodoxy, but after losing a religious war with Russia but this was non-climatic and non-lore exploit)

If Reformed could be split to add the Puritans, a Amish event or mention would be interesting too.

 

[moscal]

If Reformed could be split to add the Puritans, a Amish event or mention would be interesting too.

Main difference inter "Puritans" and "Amish" is fact, that "Puritans" had possibility become a "state religion". "Amish" are "isolated loners", therefore even they don't want become a "state church".

And in my suggestion - puritanism should be one of extremal face of anglican church. By incidents national church of England can assimilate political and theological doctrines of Puritans.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

Sure, If we're going to have the hussites in game let's have tlan optional event for the Puritans in too for those extra immersive Cromwells England playthroughs

Puritan would work better as a scale of sorts for Anglican, so an Anglican nation would have the option of being more Catholic, taking elements from Catholicism and Protestantism, or being more Protestant. Puritans never really grew to a massive movement and still were Anglican, but wanted to purify the Anglican faith of Catholic influence.

 

[Blk82]

The Amish are also German, not English, mainly from Western Switzerland and the South Rhineland. Also, "Amish" in the proper sense only arose in the early 18th century. The broader Mennonite/Anabaptist tradition did exist in the Reformation time period, but it was mainly centered in Germany in the Netherlands.

Puritan would work better as a scale of sorts for Anglican, so an Anglican nation would have the option of being more Catholic, taking elements from Catholicism and Protestantism, or being more Protestant. Puritans never really grew to a massive movement and still were Anglican, but wanted to purify the Anglican faith of Catholic influence.

Not to sound condescending, but Puritanism was a major issue in mid 17th century England. The English civil war was basically fought between conventional Anglicans versus Puritans. In so far that Puritanism as a movement within Anglicanism, you could say that the movement died in the 1660's when the Puritans left the church of England to form the Presbyterian, Congregationalist, and Baptist churches in England. After the 1660's, the Church of England did have an openly presbyterian or congregationalist faction, mainly because the open anti-episcopalians left the established church. However, the low church vs high church divide persists to this day in Anglicanism.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

The Amish are also German, not English, mainly from Western Switzerland and the South Rhineland. Also, "Amish" in the proper sense only arose in the early 18th century. The broader Mennonite/Anabaptist tradition did exist in the Reformation time period, but it was mainly centered in Germany in the Netherlands.



Not to sound condescending, but Puritanism was a major issue in mid 17th century England. The English civil war was basically fought between conventional Anglicans versus Puritans. In so far that Puritanism as a movement within Anglicanism, you could say that the movement died in the 1660's when the Puritans left the church of England to form the Presbyterian, Congregationalist, and Baptist churches in England. After the 1660's, the Church of England did have an openly presbyterian or congregationalist faction, mainly because the open anti-episcopalians left the established church. However, the low church vs high church divide persists to this day in Anglicanism.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be representation of Puritans for the Anglican faith, just that I don't think there should be a divide in faith, considering how small Anglican already is and the fact that Puritans were still Anglicans, I don't think they warrant their own faith in EU IV, that's all

 

[moscal]

I'm not saying there shouldn't be representation of Puritans for the Anglican faith, just that I don't think there should be a divide in faith, considering how small Anglican already is and the fact that Puritans were still Anglicans, I don't think they warrant their own faith in EU IV, that's all

As separate denomination - you have right.
But as branch in anglican church?

We can look on islam world - in place great numbers of sects, schools and denominations the game has introduced mechanism of "schools of law". Therefore is possible introduce branches within the anglican denomination. And I think, that using mechanism similar to "isolationism and incidents" (easy to using, without any major game changes; even by mod) will be the best form

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Main difference inter "Puritans" and "Amish" is fact, that "Puritans" had possibility become a "state religion". "Amish" are "isolated loners", therefore even they don't want become a "state church".

And in my suggestion - puritanism should be one of extremal face of anglican church. By incidents national church of England can assimilate political and theological doctrines of Puritans.

I was thinking of a event that gave a reward for diplomacy and/or punishment for militarism, given the Amish pacifism and all. With Calvin/Knox being the face of the Reformed church and Oliver Cromwell the face of the puritan/non-conformists*, a less warmongering representation would not be bad.

*plus some weird chaos over in Massachusetts, mind you.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Not to sound condescending, but Puritanism was a major issue in mid 17th century England. The English civil war was basically fought between conventional Anglicans versus Puritans. (...)

The High Anglican cavaliers were mostly High Anglican cavaliers alright, but some secret Catholics were much more favorable to King Charles (and his Catholic wife) and the "Catholicism without Pope" of the High Anglican Church (this was more noticeable in the first and second generations that lived after the whole Tudor thing and had no idea how it really was, aside from the propaganda). And it is not a terrible thing to remember that to this day the High and Low churches are enough at odds to force the Archbishops of Canterbury to alternate between a High Anglican (the previous one) and Evangelical (the current one) to keep everyone less unhappy.

Source: the Orange Men (not that one)

But about the Amish being German, since once in a game I had the Reformed faith spawned in Portugal, I am not sure if that matters that much given everything. Or maybe I am wrong.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

As separate denomination - you have right.
But as branch in anglican church?

We can look on islam world - in place great numbers of sects, schools and denominations the game has introduced mechanism of "schools of law". Therefore is possible introduce branches within the anglican denomination. And I think, that using mechanism similar to "isolationism and incidents" (easy to using, without any major game changes; even by mod) will be the best form

That's what I'm saying, though I wouldn't make it similar to the school system for Islam, Puritans don't warrant being split from Anglicans but you definitely can add a mechanic and events, which Anglican needs the rework anyway, and they can choose to embrace more Catholicism or more Protestantism and you could have a bar or something, similar to Piety for Islam.

 

[moscal]

have a bar or something, similar to Piety for Islam.

I think, that "mechanism similat to piety or karma" will not be good.

Piety and karma are dynamic and individual system. Based on image or real attitude of X ruler. New ruler must work (again) on piety/karma. Build from zero.

Second problem with bar in piety/karma style is fact, that extremes (or centrism) are profitable. Similar mechanism for anglicanism will be unreal, because church structures and volk are more durable, often independent of the monarch's individual ideas of ruler. We must remember, that religion of country isn't this same as religion of ruler or even nation - France can be catholic state but ruler can be reformed.

Therefore also my concept will be good. Each level has different rules. Puritan England can be as profitable as England with monarchist Anglicanism. Changing church rules is not easy, making rapid changes is often impossible, to changes are needed significant problems etc.