Twitter Updates (1.4/1.5)

[Seryss]

That's not what's wrong with purging at all.

What's wrong with purging is that there is NO UPSIDE to it.

Something bad happens - you lose a pop, and all its associated tile production and growth time - and then everyone hates you for it diplomatically.

Even if 1.5 changes things such that, say, only the home empire of the species you purged cares, that only softens the blow. Purging still remains a net loss that no-one would do unless they were "Shoot themselves in the foot for the RP challenge" playing.

And call me old-fashioned, but I like the mechanics of my videogames to at least theoretically have some competitive utility. Whereas what seems to be happening here is they're adding more options that no-one will ever use in a tight game.

There are some benefits to purging.

You already have multiple slave mineral producing worlds, and need to balance out your science ratio, but no planets are nearby to colonize with your species, and terraforming is slow or unavailable to you, but you have enslaved another species that has at least some positive traits regarding science and or energy production. What you do is take that one pop and place it on one of your colonized worlds, when it reproduces the new pop will have your exact ethos - you then purge the old xenos without your ethos or just colonize on a new world, the original grower pop more than likely still needs to die, and replace with the new pop, and now you have a largely loyal species, who is excellent at science, can be placed in the docile faction eliminating malcontents, and can help you further colonize without your own species particular downfalls, you can mix and match the various species and get the exact trait, and ethos combination far faster than with negative ethics divergence or single planet gene modding which typically comes later in the game.

Further, if you colonize a planet early that is somewhat far away from you, and worse yet has an ethic divergence malus attached you may find yourself having to purge not only the initial pop that diverged but its offspring, with purge say it's 2:1 ratio you can purge a new pop every month until you get the pop with your matching ethos to spawn, and as that pop grows, and the other/s is purged your planet is back to being fully in line with your ethos.

Then there are the horrible planet choices the ai makes, and you being unable to evaluate the planet beforehand decide that the 14 tile planet isn't worth the 24% science increase or over core energy/influence cost to manually redevelop it, and you know if you throw it in a sector as is, it is barely if at all an asset with multiple labs, no power/mineral hub/slave processing, multiple tile blockers, etc.

Mindlessly choosing the cede planet option every time, throwing up a space port, and putting those planets in a sector will take you far in stellaris, but there are slightly better options, and purge occasionally lends itself to that.

 

[Madzai]

There are some benefits to purging.....

You know, all that you described works only if you bypass Core planet limit. Doing all of this with 5 Core planets? Jiggling planets around for tons of influence?

 

[Seryss]

You know, all that you described works only if you bypass Core planet limit. Doing all of this with 5 Core planets? Jiggling planets around for tons of influence?

It depends on how you arrange your planets in a sector, and your sector limit. Early colonization or even late colonization you will likely have just added that planet where any significant divergence is occuring so it isn't a large loss of influence. It's also important to capitalize on multi planet systems as they are counted as one planet for core planet purposes. So to me 90 even up to 240 influence on resettling, and 50 influence for jiggling sectors is reasonable for the increased output i hope to gain. Especially if you consider your other options for spending influence, and how lackluster many of them are.

I only run free thought for empire wide edicts, and outside of the early game largely ignore frontier outposts, unless there is a very specific strategic resource that isn't in my normal borders. I use planetary edicts sparingly as the amount of influence they take versus their overall impact is marginal. Leaders if you select the enduring trait are fairly cheap overall. Colonization Influence cost also diminishes rapidly as you won't be colonizing planets very far away in the later stages of the game.

I don't waste my time guaranteeing independence or forming defensive pacts outside of the very early game i don't vassalize and then integrate either. So i find the best use of influence is usually resettling, and adjusting things within sectors as necessary.

 

[Artaios Greybark]

Purging has the benefit of remaining PURE! You cannot evaluate purity based on economic principles!

 

[Pagz]

Purging really is its own reward.

 

[misterderp]

Purging has the benefit of remaining PURE! You cannot evaluate purity based on economic principles!

Nonsense! What is more valuable? pure gold mass 1 kg? or gold mixed with lead also 1 kg (50/50 split of mass over the two elements)? Pure gold of course! Our empire with only our species in it is pure gold, our empire with filthy xeno scum is gold mixed with lead.

Remember this saying of old
Our species is gold,
xenos are lead:
never forget!

 

[Malecord]

That's not what's wrong with purging at all.

What's wrong with purging is that there is NO UPSIDE to it.

Something bad happens - you lose a pop, and all its associated tile production and growth time - and then everyone hates you for it diplomatically.

Even if 1.5 changes things such that, say, only the home empire of the species you purged cares, that only softens the blow. Purging still remains a net loss that no-one would do unless they were "Shoot themselves in the foot for the RP challenge" playing.

And call me old-fashioned, but I like the mechanics of my videogames to at least theoretically have some competitive utility. Whereas what seems to be happening here is they're adding more options that no-one will ever use in a tight game.

? It's a purge. It's a tool to physically remove masses of individuals that carry undesired genes or ideas. You don't kill billions for hobby.

You do that to protect an autocratic government (when you are 10 vs 1000000 you always lose to rebellions so need to prevent rebellions altogether by preventing subversive ideas from spreading. Physical elimination of an idea is always a winning argument because the wrong idea cannot argue back).

Or to protect the status of an intolerant majority (if tomorrow cats are allowed to work and have a career, they will inevitably start to climb the social ladder and eventually become you rulers or have a higher salary than you. Would you like to live in a world where inferior being like cats watch you from above? They are beasts and as such they must serve humans as slave pets, not rule over them. And should they rebel or pose a danger they should be exterminated as beats. The government fails to keep cats in check? Then screw the oppressive government! Power to the people!).

Or (as typically happened and happens in the modern era) you do for both reasons altogether (protect an autocracy whilst pleasing an intolerant majority to prevent it from becoming to unhappy and revolt).

As for the opinion/diplomatic consequences the dead don't complain. Of course is up to the living to express disdain.

 

[Milten]

Not sure if serious. And if yes, what it has to do with actual gameplay?

 

[Malecord]

Not sure if serious. And if yes, what it has to do with actual gameplay?

?

Try to play as xenophobic communal empire, ban any purge and let xenos and other ethoes become the majority of the full right citizens in your empire. Then have fun dealing with civil wars while the other empires conquer the galaxy and win the game.

 

[Milten]

?

Try to play as xenophobic communal empire, ban any purge and let xenos and other ethoes become the majority of the full right citizens in your empire. Then have fun dealing with civil wars while the other empires conquer the galaxy and win the game.

And who's rebelling exactly in your game?

 

[Malecord]

Now? Nobody.

During my first games it was sectors that rebelled due to unadequate Xeno management.

 

[Milten]

Now? Nobody.

During my first games it was sectors that rebelled due to unadequate Xeno management.

Ehm, so xenos with full citizenship were rebellious or your core species?

 

[Malecord]

I dunno where you want to go.

I never saw a core world rebelling. Sectors usually do. Sectors can easily stockpile malcontent slaves (if you continue to expand and never purge) and malcontent citizens which the game puts in the independentist faction.

Be nice with xenos and unhappiness due to xenophoby will trigger sector independence. Refuse to purge slaves and eventually they will be so many compared to the primary specie that they will rebel.

Are there measures to fight those factions? Yes. Pay influence to reduce their influence and pay energy/minerals for armies. Is this sustainable? Dunno. I never tried. It seems totally nonsense play xenophobe or collectivist without purging. I can find better usages for influence and resources.

 

[Milten]

I dunno where you want to go.

Species. Which ones are malcontent? Pure or xenos? Original or acquired? Founders or conquered?

malcontent slaves

Wait, where did these came from? You said you gave them full citzenship.

 

[Artaios Greybark]

Of course it is not the core world rebelling. Just like he implicitly and explicitly stated before. I am not really sure where you are going with this, either.

 

[terrycloth]

That's not what's wrong with purging at all.

What's wrong with purging is that there is NO UPSIDE to it.

Something bad happens - you lose a pop, and all its associated tile production and growth time - and then everyone hates you for it diplomatically.

Even if 1.5 changes things such that, say, only the home empire of the species you purged cares, that only softens the blow. Purging still remains a net loss that no-one would do unless they were "Shoot themselves in the foot for the RP challenge" playing.

And call me old-fashioned, but I like the mechanics of my videogames to at least theoretically have some competitive utility. Whereas what seems to be happening here is they're adding more options that no-one will ever use in a tight game.

Most empires hate you a little for having the purge policy, but there doesn't seem to be any per-population diplomatic penalty for actually doing the purge. Maybe certain kinds of empires care? Pacifists maybe?

In 1.4 with faction suppression a thing, enslaving random malcontents is usually better because you can just suppress the malcontent slave faction for a fraction of an influence point and go on your way, and there's usually a few food or mineral spots on any planet that they can hold down. So you don't need to use purging for that anymore...

But a planet full of happy, productive citizens is better than a planet full of slaves, so if your race can live on the planet your best bet is to purge everyone and replace them with your own people. It's also pretty common to take over a world that was suffering from ethics divergence and already has a couple of pops that are compatible with your ethics -- if you purge the rest you'll soon have a world full of happy aliens instead of a world full of angry aliens that you have to enslave.

Even if the world is half full of angry aliens and you could enslave them and keep them from breeding and fill the rest of the spaces with your pops... many of your locally grown pops will grow up with the alien ethics. Purging is better.

And all this can be done (or at least set up) while paused after the peace treaty or vassal integration. Sectors with purge and slavery disabled won't change your decision if you put them in a sector afterwards. The last time I played I integrated a huge vassal and went to 20/6 planets, half of which needed to be purged and seeded with my pops. Resettlement cost a few hundred influence, but I was back under the limit before I hit unpause.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

Most empires hate you a little for having the purge policy, but there doesn't seem to be any per-population diplomatic penalty for actually doing the purge. Maybe certain kinds of empires care? Pacifists maybe?

Most empires should care, purging shows a clear willingness to butcher large numbers of civilians. That level of ruthlessness should absolutely bother most States. Because if you are willing to slaughter your people then you would have no problem killing theirs.

In 1.4 with faction suppression a thing, enslaving random malcontents is usually better because you can just suppress the malcontent slave faction for a fraction of an influence point and go on your way, and there's usually a few food or mineral spots on any planet that they can hold down. So you don't need to use purging for that anymore...

Absolutely, but with the changes to ethos divergence and factions purging may be more useful in 1.5.

 

[Bobylein]

In the"

StellarisGame 1.5 update, pops may object to being purged, and in fact, try to run away.

https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/821638328634249221

No idea why the quote function fucks this up so much...

But I like that possibility, I just would love to see a middlepath too.
Like: Yea we take the pops from that empire (they fit our ethics) but not from that other empire, because.... well it's safe I guess? Not like they would even flee if it would be safe but it is definitely safe! so we do not take them! (disgusting fungi!)

Of course that arguing would only be needed if your pops are xenophile, otherwise you could be more direct.

 

[Madzai]

Great. Refugees means that we can now just throw those pesky xenos out instead of purging. Btw, expulsion of population will be result of cleanse planet wargoal depending on your own policy (f.e. purging for xenophobes, expulsion for less radical policies) or it would be a part of another wargoal, or even some new refugee mechanics?

 

[Gaussia]

Quick suggestion. Add a Refugee option for "Main Species only" or "Only for SPecies with citizenship" or something like that were you can keep it to thoose species that you find welcome.
(Probably won't be needed in most games)