Twitter screenshot 3-18 - Upgrade question

[FNK_Drake]

That's not what I ment; I ment that units should always be upgradable. An upgrade is after all just an abstracted way of changing the unit's equipment. Brigades need not have seperated equipment and men for this.

Okay, I misunderstood you there.

I just think its silly that when you upgrade a unit all those perfectly good tanks disappear.

They could have been used to train crews, or could have been sold to allied minor nations, or converted to SP Art or Tank Destroyers or whatever.

Perhaps you can be given the option to start upgrades when you researched a new component (and pay the costs for it) or wait untill you can make a more decent upgrade, although thats just wishfull thinking (... or not )

You could set a unit not to upgrade, and then change that when you have enough techs ready. But it wouldnt solve the problem of tanks that dont make sense.

Example: PzI had a 60hp engine, PzII had a 130hp(or was it 120) early PzIIIs had 250hp.

being 2 techs ahead in one area isnt all that uncommon in some situations. So what happens, will we have PzIs with 250HP cruising through France at 70km/h?

It just seems rather silly to me.

 

[Kikaider]

You know what, its probably not worth extrapolating anymore/further, since the game has entered feature-lock/beta; I think it'll be easiest if someone answers the following 2 questions, as I believe it sums up the worries some may have

1) Does "tank-armor" effectively equate to chassis?
2) Will a model 1945 tank gun in any instance ever be allowed on a brigade with model 1918 engine/reliability/armour without at least some (massive) penalties? You can switch around any of the 4 components at will and it will probably make sense as to why some one might question this (high armor rating - strong engine=tank won't move, big gun without big chassis won't fit etc...)

Eitherway I'm buying the game; I know Paradox will do a good job and I'll enjoy myself. Regardless I'll shut up for a while for now, since I seem to be annoying some people (I'm sure)

 

[Radu]

So let me get straight, I have a tank division with Panzzer 4As, and they should never ever upgrade at all until the Panther is designed? We justify this stance in the name of historical accuracy? Somehow you haven't sold me here.

I am not challenging the system when it works . I am challenging where it doesn't.

I fully agree that this system works beautifully when it comes to a "smooth lineage" of models like the Pz-IV line or T-34 or Sherman "dynasties".

My question is what happens at the "fracture zones"?

A Pz-IV can only be upgraded so far just as a T-34 and a Sherman tank. They all have a limit. The limit is 9 times of 10 the inability to mount a larger gun.

Eventually a new design that denominates a completely new generation rolls off.

One such "fracture zone" is the transition from the Pz-IVF/G to the Panther tank. This is not an incremental step forward,it is a downright jump. New armor,new gun,new engine,new everything.

Or another "fracture zone", this time in the heavy tank field is the jump from the KV-1 (model '43) to the IS-1. New chassis,new engine,new gun,the works.

Or the Churchill tank. The Churchill wasn't a "modified Matilda" just like the KV-1 wasn't a modified T-35 or Panther isn't a modified Pz-IV. It was a new design.

Shouldn't there be two systems working in tandem?

1) An incremental system that signifies the improvements brought upon an established generation.

This means recognizing that a given chassis has a set "improvement potential" that is finite and well defined and that there is a technical limit beyond which a given chassis cannot be improved upon.

The most important limit should,of course,be the gun type (large caliber,long barrel).

2) A "jump" system that signifies the advent of an entirely new generation of tanks different clearly from the previous one.

This should allow players to really bring out shiny new toys,not simply "patch up" the old ones.

Referring to the situation you have brought up, a "step by step" system correctly describes the progression from the Pz-IV A to G. But this system does not correctly portray the qualitative jump from the Pz-IVG to the Pz-V Panther.

I would recommend that a new component be added,one that "cues" an across the board improvement : chassis . Different from "armor". One that also gives the main name of a given model.

A T-34 is the chassis.Not the armor or gun or engine which can all be modified.

The chassis should be the "core" of a model. The chassis can be up-armored,up-gunned,fitted with a new,better engine (err...where are the tank gun sights? they are present for indirect fire artillery but absent for tanks?),better reliability, it can modified for specialist vehicles (SP-AT,SP-ART,SP-AA), up to a limit of course.

A new chassis should automatically include the latest gun,armor,engine (reliability can reasonably be left out) in the upgrade queue (with the adequate costs and all).

This is one universal rule, that the advent of a new generation of tanks includes the best available at the moment,doubly so for armament.

Thus, the issue that I am raising is that there were two types of progress :

1) Step-by-step improvements of existing models (Pz-IV A - F, T-34 models,etc)
2) Completely new generations clearly different from the previous ones. The examples are several,I've enumerated some before and here are some more :

-Transition from M5 Stuart to M24 Chaffee
-Transition from Matilda I to Matilda II (it is a common misconception that the two Matildas were related,but they were not.)
-Transition from the M3 Lee to the M4 Sherman (The M4 Sherman was not an improved M3,the M3 was an improved M2)
-Transition from the Crusader tank to the Cromwell cruiser tank

 

[lordashran]

imho you are taking the issue to literally, if you know what i mean ^^

try using this example for how this system might reflect history:

You have tank model A and start researching new stuff.
Now remember a tank brigade isnt just one type of tank but will allways include some 'specialists' tanks, recon, heavy etc, though these are obviously not the focus of the unit.
When you develop a new gun or armor plating this is what happens:
Your Factories will start using that new equipment on a model were it will actually be of help, so maybe just the heavy assets of the brigade get actually replaced.

We now from a DD that once certain minimal values are reached the brigade name will change, thats the point when you actually have completed development on a new main tank and start producing these.

"Upgrade" doesnt mean that some mechanics on the field start attaching extra plating to existing tanks, it implies that replacements send will be newer models and that at some point the old models are removed for the new ones.

(which actually is modelled pretty well by the low upgrade costs, as these old models will be used for something different)

The flavor names for the units are there for flavor, otherwise we would just research the models. They only reflect the relative position of your tanks to their historical counterparts.

I think you should try to see the 'upgrade process' more like this, more 'organic' if you like.
There will allways be part of the brigade that will profit from a certain technology even if it wont change the units name,
and this might include the situation when your unit A displays something in its stats that wasnt actually in model A historicals equivalent.
It doesnt necessarily mean that you have an M3 tank with an M4 gun but that other (minor) parts of the unit are equipped with that weapon.

After all, its all in your head, as a gamer you dont allways need a game to take you by the hand just use your imagination.

Sorry for the long text.

 

[Radu]

1) I completely disagree with your assertion that a given equipment research as part of the "tank" category will simply be used for "something else". Not only are there techs for specialized vehicles,the idea itself is ridiculous.

Are you saying that if you research a new engine and you don't have a chassis to put it in your engineers will just "figure something out"? Same for armor. "Well,we have some extra armor but nowhere to put it on. Let's just slap it on some halftracks"... Please

No,you did not just have an M3 Lee tank brigade with some M4 engines,guns or armor slapped on whatever they could be. That's not even close to what real-life works like.

2) The "phasing out" mechanism is not mentioned anywhere. What is mentioned is a clear set of specifications : Armor,Engine,Gun,etc. There is no room for "fuzzyness". A clear model with clear attributes is mentioned as the main equipment of a given tank brigade.

I don't have a problem with that.What I have a problem with is the fact that the game engine treats all changes as "smooth changes" when in fact models could only be improved so far and then a clear jump took place when a completely new generation of tanks were fielded.

I'm sorry,but I really don't see how your convoluted theory stands.

 

[unmerged(52507)]

Radu, what you are saying has some merit, but I think you may be missing the abstraction element in the picture. There are fracture zones, but in terms of the categories available to the gamer they may not be so apparent. The new models you speak of with new guns, new armour, new everything were leaps. But the path of HOI upgrade looks as if the inch by inch method will rule. Where the issue becomes a problem is how the flavour names are attached to the models we design. If a german tank has all the new gen aspects of a panther bar one - say an old 50mm gun, will the game call it a panther?

 

[lordashran]

Obviously you didnt read my post thoroughly...
...or i wasnt clear ... well ^^

let me try again
a tank brigade is composed by different tank models

why cant i assume that only parts of the brigade (1 type of vehicle) get upgraded at a time?

Not every vehicle came into existence at the same time so i can fairly assume that there is a fluctuation within the brigade.

And yes, i really believe that when they were ready to deploy better armor but werent ready to use it for their main tanks yet, because the complete design wasnt ready, they would find a use for it.
Maybe our new Recon vehicle that we are developing could profit from that armor?

I am just explaining my point of view because I think
you are all getting pretty excited about a minor detail
that is also hard to accuratly represent with the naming conventions they introduced and what the idea behind the free technology system is

at least imho

 

[FNK_Drake]

1) I completely disagree with your assertion that a given equipment research as part of the "tank" category will simply be used for "something else". Not only are there techs for specialized vehicles,the idea itself is ridiculous.

Are you saying that if you research a new engine and you don't have a chassis to put it in your engineers will just "figure something out"? Same for armor. "Well,we have some extra armor but nowhere to put it on. Let's just slap it on some halftracks"... Please

No,you did not just have an M3 Lee tank brigade with some M4 engines,guns or armor slapped on whatever they could be. That's not even close to what real-life works like.

2) The "phasing out" mechanism is not mentioned anywhere. What is mentioned is a clear set of specifications : Armor,Engine,Gun,etc. There is no room for "fuzzyness". A clear model with clear attributes is mentioned as the main equipment of a given tank brigade.

I don't have a problem with that.What I have a problem with is the fact that the game engine treats all changes as "smooth changes" when in fact models could only be improved so far and then a clear jump took place when a completely new generation of tanks were fielded.

I'm sorry,but I really don't see how your convoluted theory stands.

I agree with you completely.

This may not be included in the game, but it will definitely be modifiable.

Just look at the naval system. ships can upgrade AA guns, but nothing else. And as Johan stated, it is all modifiable.

So the same sort of thing should be able to be applied to Tanks. Models should be upgraded if possible, and I agree there needs to be limits. Im not sure how the limits can be modeled by the system, but we will find out once we get the game.

The only thing im not sure how to handle is the upgrade of tanks to new models.

It does not make sense to have your most experienced crews in your worst tanks, so there need to be some way to switch them. This is why I wish Manpower and equipment were 2 different things. Even if all it was was an extra bar directly linked to strength (lose 1% strength, loose 1% manpower, maybe medical techs can modify an amount of manpower that is saved and returned to the pool over time to simulate injured troops returning to duty over a period of time.)

Perhaps some kind of button to swap the experience of divisions of the same type to simulate this sort of thing.

 

[unmerged(54763)]

So let me get straight, I have a tank division with Panzzer 4As, and they should never ever upgrade at all until the Panther is designed? We justify this stance in the name of historical accuracy? Somehow you haven't sold me here.

Of course ,Guderian proposed to OKW massive production of improved PZ IV version instead entirely new Panther(arguably if implemented this could bring victory to Germany).

But,how "acurate "game will be in this field?

For instance panzer III chasey didnt have technical possibility to carry long 75 mm gun.In the time it was constructed PZ III was state of the art,and even in war lately very advanced but had this serrious drowback.
By opinion of some ww2 experts maybee this single technical feature prevented Germany to win the war.If during developement of PZ III contructors predicted ability in future to had ability to carry long 75 gun it will be a match for T 34,exactly what was needed.But they wasnt predict this, PZ III even with high velocity 50 mm gun was anable to score aginst T 34 except from the rear.

Will for instance I be able to mount 75 mm gun on class III chassey,freely or there will be some obstacles?
Will I be able to try to mount bigger gun than historicaly to this classs of chasey and will this be easy or very difficult to achieve?

 

[jbone567]

I think something very important is being missed here. I actually don't have a problem with the "inches" approach because I agree with the idea that only some elements of a brigade may see the upgrades. Also this game shouldn't necessarily be 100% historically accurate because as players we are changing history through the game.

The problem I have and I'm not sure how its addressed is the new intel system. If you can upgun tanks without the model changing will you be able to see through your intel that you are facing a tank with a larger gun or are you going to blunder into battle against far superior tanks without knowing it?

 

[BlueWarrior]

If you can upgun tanks without the model changing will you be able to see through your intel that you are facing a tank with a larger gun or are you going to blunder into battle against far superior tanks without knowing it?

Both of which can happen in real life though.

I suppose this will depend on how much detail the intelligence system goes into. In HOI2 it was only along the lines of x number of infantry divisions, y number of armoured divisions etc

 

[unmerged(86498)]

1. i'm sorry if this has been said before but there are 50 posts, most of them very long and i simply don't have time to read them all
2. i think the solution to the problem radu raises is easy: certain technologies should have requirements in other fields before advancing past a certain level. Example: u shouldn't be able to research tank guns past a certain point without the necessary chassis, and u can't research tank chassis without the necessary engines to get them moving, and so on. In historical terms: the germans didn't just jump from pz IV D to panther, they first made the long-guned pz IV.