If there was a historical interim design, I think HOI3 would have it, right? King's idea of inching forward is the smartest way to go; first a better chassis, then a better engine, then larger armnament, etc., etc.
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If there was a historical interim design, I think HOI3 would have it, right? King's idea of inching forward is the smartest way to go; first a better chassis, then a better engine, then larger armnament, etc., etc.
What's so smart about having to wait a year (best case scenario) for ALL your tanks to upgrade to a new chassis then wait another year to wait for the guns.
That's stupid .
It's like the Germans first fielding only the Tiger chassis and then 1 year later the Tiger gun. That's smart?? Yeah,smart as Halo.
At least they could program the upgrade system as a "pipeline" that seeks to upgrade all components of one brigade before moving to the next in the queue.
Sure,it's a far cry from each component having its own upgrade "progress bar",thus allowing for any component that can be upgraded to be upgraded as soon as possible rather than wait for the first component to be done.
EDIT :
I'm sorry,but I just have to get this out of my system.
I'm not some guru programmer,but I know a thing or two about software engineering. And one of the things drilled into my head in college was "patterns".
So my question is :
If the "pattern" of "independent, parallel upgrading of thingies whose attributes increase" can work in HOI2 where the "thingies" were divisions, why can't this parallelism be imported for components?
If divisions in HOI2 and brigades in HOI3 are entities whose attributes increase in a parallel and independent manner of one another they each upgrade at their own pace , why force a linear,sequential (instead of parallel) upgrade system for the most basic "attribute growth thingie",the brigade component?
If the upgrade queue has something like "Brigade X upgrades component Y to model Z" then why can't the next parallel,independent entry be "Brigade X (same bde) upgrades component Y2 to model Z" as well? Why can't one brigade upgrade multiple components at the same time?
I don't care about synchronization (though that would be nice and downright necessary if a new gun needs a new chassis), but really,why can't the very system that worked so well on divisions in HOI2 be applied to brigade components?
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What's so smart about having to wait a year (best case scenario) for ALL your tanks to upgrade to a new chassis then wait another year to wait for the guns.
That's stupid .
It's like the Germans first fielding only the Tiger chassis and then 1 year later the Tiger gun. That's smart?? Yeah,smart as Halo.
At least they could program the upgrade system as a "pipeline" that seeks to upgrade all components of one brigade before moving to the next in the queue.
Sure,it's a far cry from each component having its own upgrade "progress bar",thus allowing for any component that can be upgraded to be upgraded as soon as possible rather than wait for the first component to be done.
EDIT :
I'm sorry,but I just have to get this out of my system.
I'm not some guru programmer,but I know a thing or two about software engineering. And one of the things drilled into my head in college was "patterns".
So my question is :
If the "pattern" of "independent, parallel upgrading of thingies whose attributes increase" can work in HOI2 where the "thingies" were divisions, why can't this parallelism be imported for components?
If divisions in HOI2 and brigades in HOI3 are entities whose attributes increase in a parallel and independent manner of one another they each upgrade at their own pace , why force a linear,sequential (instead of parallel) upgrade system for the most basic "attribute growth thingie",the brigade component?
If the upgrade queue has something like "Brigade X upgrades component Y to model Z" then why can't the next parallel,independent entry be "Brigade X (same bde) upgrades component Y2 to model Z" as well? Why can't one brigade upgrade multiple components at the same time?
I don't care about synchronization (though that would be nice and downright necessary if a new gun needs a new chassis), but really,why can't the very system that worked so well on divisions in HOI2 be applied to brigade components?
A little nasty of you, here. Do you really think tanks were just made all at once, without delays of any kind in one part or another? They had to perfect the chassis before they added a gun, etc. As I recall, they used the Panzer Mark VI "Tiger" chassis for more than just a tank. They also made some wicked looking mobile flak cannon as well, and the only did this because during the development of the chassis itself they saw it fit to work with for this use.
Also, keep in mind, the tech. "1939 Infantry Division," for example, is a combination of like 300 different things, from an improved helmet to a better trigger for a sub-machine gun. This is, thankfully, abstracted in the game. Wouldn't a moving-parts machine like a tank also have a multitude of little parts, etc., that need to be "updated" as well, abstractly? It would seem that here, in HOI3, they are actually taking some of this abstraction away, in terms of having stronger engine, larger gun, etc. I see no problem with this.
Upgrades for infantry, Mtn, Par, etc should generally be parallel, because there is not a prerequisite for a better machinegun, aside from the previous design. There is not a need to research (at this strategic level) better mortar rounds before researching the tube.
With tanks however, there are definite prerequisites before one can just simply (for example) upgrade the main gun of all his tank divisions. In tank design, the main focuses are the gun, armor and speed. All else is dictated by those three, usually. One cannot just research 88mm tank gun and start upgrading his Pz. IIIs. The gun size needs a special turret, which needs a special chassis, which needs a special engine. These things are not separately upgradeable in many cases. There are examples of up-gunning and up-armoring existing tank models, but only to a limited degree.
In the case of tanks, I would actually prefer a model system not too unlike HoI. In the original, you researched the model after all other prerequisites were researched. For instance, you needed to research basic medium hull, 50 mm gun, basic gears, engine, suspension, prototype, and only then would the model be buildable. Throw in the option for one level of up-gunning and up-armoring, and you have a pretty realistic tank design system. Add other techs like radio, machineguns, etc. for other bonuses, but the tank is a tank, and rearranging each and every main component independently is not usually possible.
With tanks however, there are definite prerequisites before one can just simply (for example) upgrade the main gun of all his tank divisions. In tank design, the main focuses are the gun, armor and speed. All else is dictated by those three, usually. One cannot just research 88mm tank gun and start upgrading his Pz. IIIs. The gun size needs a special turret, which needs a special chassis, which needs a special engine. These things are not separately upgradeable in many cases. There are examples of up-gunning and up-armoring existing tank models, but only to a limited degree.
In the case of tanks, I would actually prefer a model system not too unlike HoI. In the original, you researched the model after all other prerequisites were researched. For instance, you needed to research basic medium hull, 50 mm gun, basic gears, engine, suspension, prototype, and only then would the model be buildable. Throw in the option for one level of up-gunning and up-armoring, and you have a pretty realistic tank design system. Add other techs like radio, machineguns, etc. for other bonuses, but the tank is a tank, and rearranging each and every main component independently is not usually possible.
Oh,I'm sure there were delays, but tanks were definitely not delivered half-finished,which is what the HOI3 engine apparently does. You didn't see the M4 Sherman delivered with a 37mm or even a 57mm gun because the 75mm wasn't done yet,did you? Same for the Panther or Tiger or Pz-III. You didn't see the Germans field Pz-IIIs with 20mm autocannons because the gun wasn't adapted yet.
So what are we arguing here? That the tank design process involved several steps? Most surely. But from that to pushing half-finished tanks out the factory door is quite a long way.
As a side note, there was no self-propelled AA design based on the Tiger unless it's a really obscure tank design. Perhaps you meant the Pz-IV whose chassis did indeed spawn a whole line of late-war self-propelled AA guns.
But we aren't talking about specialized vehicles here,we're talking about regular tanks.
Again,you've missed my point,which isn't the level of detail,but that wether you like it or not,you will have to wait for a brigade to update its components one at a time which IMHO is quite simply, unrealistic.
'inching forward' doesn't seem like the best idea to me.. but we'll have to wait and see how it works out I guess.
I would think a better way would be once you have the new technology researched that you want to include in your next tank model, you create that new tank model, _then_ your armored divisions start to upgrade to the new tank.
You would have a choice to make then... For example, say your standard tank model is a Pz III with a 37mm gun. You have researched a 50mm gun, but no other applicable technology. Do you want to spend the time/money to upgrade your existing Pz III's with the 50mm gun (thereby creating the Pz III Ausf. 'B', for example), or do you want to wait until you've researched better armor/chassis/engine and upgrade to a whole new model?
Also, I hope there are limits... as Kikaider already mentioned, if we see 75mm guns on a PzKpfw I, something is seriously out of whack.
There needs to be a way to limit the number of 'steps' an existing piece of equipment can be upgraded... you can't stick a 75mm gun on a vehicle whose turret ring will not accomodate a turret that will house that size weapon.
I would think a better way would be once you have the new technology researched that you want to include in your next tank model, you create that new tank model, _then_ your armored divisions start to upgrade to the new tank.
You would have a choice to make then... For example, say your standard tank model is a Pz III with a 37mm gun. You have researched a 50mm gun, but no other applicable technology. Do you want to spend the time/money to upgrade your existing Pz III's with the 50mm gun (thereby creating the Pz III Ausf. 'B', for example), or do you want to wait until you've researched better armor/chassis/engine and upgrade to a whole new model?
Also, I hope there are limits... as Kikaider already mentioned, if we see 75mm guns on a PzKpfw I, something is seriously out of whack.
There needs to be a way to limit the number of 'steps' an existing piece of equipment can be upgraded... you can't stick a 75mm gun on a vehicle whose turret ring will not accomodate a turret that will house that size weapon.
I am not sure what are the devs thoughts on this, but this might be a problem. We didn't had yet a dev diary on upgrades, and this weird result might be limited by some requirements. In some cases on the sole player's motivation to use historical paths. And sometimes these might be effective. We didn't receive enough information about how this system actually works, so we need to wait for the other puzzle pieces.
Hehe, I love being quoted
Anyways, as I said I don't mind 'inching' forward as long as I don't see 75mm guns on a PzKpfw I
The logical solution is that 'max' model type range is say '2 units' between the most advanced gun and least advanced component (chasis or engine as the limiters) of a tank
For example I'll just use my PzKpfw I and III for baseline, and for simplicity sake I'll only pretend that the components are engine, armor/chasis, and gun
So lets say the models go 1918-1936-1939-1941-1943
So for...
Armor/Chasis type: PzI, PzII, PzIII, PzIV, Panther
Engine types: 700hp, 1000hp, 1250hp, 1500hp, 2000hp (I so made these numbers up, bear with it)
Gun Caliber: Dual 7.3mm MG, 30mm, 47mm, 55mm, 75mm (again, prentend the flavor)
So Pz1 would start with 700hp and Dual 7.3mm MG, and in 1937 be up gunned to 30mm and in 1939 be up-gunned again to 47mm, this time with up-engined to 1000hp, but because of the limit range, you'll never see a 55mm cannon on it. At least till you bring it up to PzII
The upshot is go crazy all you want researching gun tech for tanks (and there should always SOME gain in offensive str, because you could always improve the penetrative abilities of your AP rounds, or explosiveness of your HE rounds) but you get much less RoI if you don't let your tanks be upgunned
Another example: A PzIII starting could be at 47mm and be further up gunned to 75mm but you'll never see an 88mm cannon on that chassis (if that's the next model type)
Another example: A Panther can surely handle a 30mm cannon, but you better have that 1500hp engine if you want to try for a 75mm
There you go, nice elegant solution that fits with inching foward without the 'slippery slope' to the absurd
besides who says you can't upgrade all 3 at once
I noticed the silence of the devs on this one as well.
Odds are that although they might have agreed on the "inch forward" principle,they are also aware of the drawbacks of this system. Perhaps the discussions are ongoing hence why the no dev diary on the upgrade system has been released. We haven't even gotten a glimpse of something as trivial as the upgrade slider.
Maybe that's a good thing...
Odds are that although they might have agreed on the "inch forward" principle,they are also aware of the drawbacks of this system. Perhaps the discussions are ongoing hence why the no dev diary on the upgrade system has been released. We haven't even gotten a glimpse of something as trivial as the upgrade slider.
Maybe that's a good thing...
So let me get straight, I have a tank division with Panzzer 4As, and they should never ever upgrade at all until the Panther is designed? We justify this stance in the name of historical accuracy? Somehow you haven't sold me here.
Heres my idea:
Now in the twitter screen shot we can see quite a few components that make up the tank, but the page can scroll farther so Im guessing there may be more.
What would make the game more realistic if the chassis of the tank could not be upgraded(kinda like how you can only upgrade AA guns on ships), only the guns, training, engine and reliability.
This way older PzKpfw I tanks will not be able to be upgraded unrealistically with Tank guns, but some tanks such as the PzKpfw II and III would be able to be upgraded with larger guns and slightly more Armour.
This should be limited by the chassis tech, so no PzKfpw II's with 75mm Guns.
This way the "model" of the tank could be tied to one component, and upgrading it would create a variant of that tank.
Just look at all the different models of PzKfpfw III's with varying guns and armour and even engines.
This would solve the unrealistic upgrade problems with tank magically transforming into a completely different tank.
Now I doubt anything like this will be in the game, but the way Johan talked about how the tech system is modifiable, this sounds like an easy solution to me.
Now if only there was a way to swap equipment of divisions so your most experienced crews dont get stuck with those obsolete light tanks by 1941...
Your thoughts?
Now in the twitter screen shot we can see quite a few components that make up the tank, but the page can scroll farther so Im guessing there may be more.
What would make the game more realistic if the chassis of the tank could not be upgraded(kinda like how you can only upgrade AA guns on ships), only the guns, training, engine and reliability.
This way older PzKpfw I tanks will not be able to be upgraded unrealistically with Tank guns, but some tanks such as the PzKpfw II and III would be able to be upgraded with larger guns and slightly more Armour.
This should be limited by the chassis tech, so no PzKfpw II's with 75mm Guns.
This way the "model" of the tank could be tied to one component, and upgrading it would create a variant of that tank.
Just look at all the different models of PzKfpfw III's with varying guns and armour and even engines.
This would solve the unrealistic upgrade problems with tank magically transforming into a completely different tank.
Now I doubt anything like this will be in the game, but the way Johan talked about how the tech system is modifiable, this sounds like an easy solution to me.
Now if only there was a way to swap equipment of divisions so your most experienced crews dont get stuck with those obsolete light tanks by 1941...
Your thoughts?
Too complicated. Also, a tank brigade/regiment is more then just the main battle tanks; it's also the men, guns and lighter recon tanks that the makes up the division. I like a straight-forward and simple upgrade-path myself for all brigades; in fact, I want to be able to upgrade any brigade into any other brigade-type even; since the biggest part of a brigade is the men, not the equipment. You should be able to switch in and out any equipment they have.
If your referencing that to me (I don't know, but you might be), I never said they shouldn't upgrade until a Panther comes available, you may have misunderstood my point. Of course they should upgrade, and go through all the varients through PzIVn and beyond. Becoming Up-gunned and Up-engined and all the wonderful things new models would bring.
My ONLY point was that the PzIV should have an upper limit to gun caliber (as every tank 'class' should). For example, as far as I know, no PzIV model could really handle the 7.5 cm Rheinmetall-Borsig KwK 42 (L/70) found on Panthers because of the recoil (hence short barrel varients), so there is some historical/engineering basis to limit gun caliber based on SOMETHING (I chose chassis for sake of argument)
And again the only reason I suggested my solution had nothing to do with historical accuracy, just engineering logic (a big cannon needs a big chassis) which is why I keep saying 'I'll be happy as long as I don't see a 75mm cannon on a Pz1'
While I like the idea of gradual/step-by-step updates I agree that there should be a limit on what level of upgrades can be used on a certain level of "platform".
If we can agree on the platform itself being the most important part of the tank in regard to what components can be used with it the system already mentioned here sounds very good to me.
Limit the components levels that can be used on a certain platform by the platform level. You are only able to use components of up to x levels about the platform. On the one hand this is still fairly abstract (and thus easy to handle) while on the other hand preventing the already mentioned abominations like Pz1 (e.g. lvl1 platform) mounting a 88mm gun (e.g. lvl 6 gun) with a 1500hp (e.g. lvl 6 engine). Trying to build this would essentially lead to a tank that might be shredded to pieces when using all of the engines power while essentially destroying itself when it fires its gun.
Basically I just agree that I hope that I don't have to build/encounter abominations like the one mentioned above on the battlefield.
CharonJr
If we can agree on the platform itself being the most important part of the tank in regard to what components can be used with it the system already mentioned here sounds very good to me.
Limit the components levels that can be used on a certain platform by the platform level. You are only able to use components of up to x levels about the platform. On the one hand this is still fairly abstract (and thus easy to handle) while on the other hand preventing the already mentioned abominations like Pz1 (e.g. lvl1 platform) mounting a 88mm gun (e.g. lvl 6 gun) with a 1500hp (e.g. lvl 6 engine). Trying to build this would essentially lead to a tank that might be shredded to pieces when using all of the engines power while essentially destroying itself when it fires its gun.
Basically I just agree that I hope that I don't have to build/encounter abominations like the one mentioned above on the battlefield.
CharonJr
IMO it would work best as it did in history, so small single component upgrades would be things like the gun (to a limit), engine, and some extra armor, but as soon as the chassis and turret are researched, we start on a new model all together. The panzer IV had models A-J, each had a "component" upgrade, but eventually (as stated by the infallible wikipedia):
"In a bid to augment the Panzer IV's firepower, an attempt was made to mate a Panther turret—carrying the longer 75-millimetre (2.95 in) L/70 tank gun—to a Panzer IV hull. This was unsuccessful, and confirmed that the chassis had, by this time, reached the limits of its adaptability in both weight and available volume."
So in other words there should be limitations to a particular Chassis, where eventually it can no longer handle gun size.
This is exactly what Im talking about. there needs to be some limits, seeing PzI's with engines from a Tiger and a 75mm Gun crusing through the russian steppe at 70Km/h because I chose not to upgrade anything else is going to make my brain explode :wacko:
I agree that equipment and men need to be separated, I just dont think its a reasonably proposition at this point in the development.
I would love to see it, but I doubt it can be changed now.
That's not what I ment; I ment that units should always be upgradable. An upgrade is after all just an abstracted way of changing the unit's equipment. Brigades need not have seperated equipment and men for this.
Perhaps you can be given the option to start upgrades when you researched a new component (and pay the costs for it) or wait untill you can make a more decent upgrade, although thats just wishfull thinking (... or not )
(... or not )