Twitter: Partisans vs. Patriots vs. Nationalists

[Ithron]

interesting, what the partisans that Red Army organised behind german lines are going to be? In no way they were nationalists, as they fought on foreign soil too - Baltic states, Poland. And in no way were they patriotic to the locals, so they are just the "Partisans"?

 

[Cavalry Scout]

The communist partisans were anything but disorganized

Tell me about it, they formed the Democratic party in the US. :rofl: (couldn't resist).

On topic, It makes sense about the Patriots being part of the Government in exile. Nationalist and partisan is kind of puzzling though, hopefully we can get Johan to clarify a bit. Bet its going to be the dev update this week.

EDIT: Had an additional thought. It could be dependant on who controls them. Patriots by Govt in exile, Nationalist by AI spawned due to civil war, Partisans funded by foreign government thru espionage, and disorganized rabble due to unrest. Just a thought.

 

[Markusw7]

This is my take on it

Patriots - fight for the country/government who owned the territory before the occupier came e.g. Polish Patriots in German Warsaw, Norwegian patriots in Oslo and Yugoslavian patriots in Belgrade.

Nationalists - Regardless of who owns or owned the territory they want to create a country that caters to their national identity e.g. Ukrainian Nationalists in Kiev, Serbian Nationalists in Belgrade, Korean Nationalists in Seoul.

Partisans - Fight for a specific party that isn't that of the owner. e.g. Communists in Yugoslavia, Democrats in the USSR and Fascists in the US.

disorganized rabble - everyone fighting just to keep themselves and their families safe with no other important goals. they kill the Germans harassing their people then melt away etc.

 

[HisMajestyBOB]

Here's my guess, and let's see if I'm right:

Partisans: Rebels with a political agenda (e.g. "German Communist partisans," "Soviet Liberal partisans")
Nationalists: Spawn in cores of a country that no longer exists
Patriots: Spawn in cores of one country within another country's territory
Disorganized rabble: Generic rebels

But I wonder, will nationalists have a certain political ideology too? What will determine the ideology of a newly-created nation? I hope we see, for example, "Croatian fascist nationalists."

Those would be my assumptions as well. Presumably the first two would/could be controled by the government in exile of said country, in the first case only if said government is of a similar ideology, of couse, while patriots could be controled by the country they are loyal to, and the last are controled by no one.

 

[unmerged(132658)]

Partisans, Patriots, Nationalists, and disorganized rabble

Perhaps the whole thing is based of political ideology. That would be my guess.

Partisans - Stalinists, Leninists and Left-Wing Radicals

Patriots - Market Liberals, Social Conservatives, Social Liberals and Social Democrats

Nationalists - National Socialists, Fascists and Paternal Autocrats

I assume this is the case because ideology plays a much bigger role in HoI then in EU.

 

[unmerged(134661)]

Perhaps the whole thing is based of political ideology. That would be my guess.

Partisans - Stalinists, Leninists and Left-Wing Radicals

Patriots - Market Liberals, Social Conservatives, Social Liberals and Social Democrats

Nationalists - National Socialists, Fascists and Paternal Autocrats

I assume this is the case because ideology plays a much bigger role in HoI then in EU.

A very very different take on the subject. There's definately something to that argument and in that case it's strictly a flavour concept. I'd actually prefer this over what I think will be introduced.

 

[unmerged(123225)]

Perhaps the whole thing is based of political ideology. That would be my guess.

Partisans - Stalinists, Leninists and Left-Wing Radicals

Patriots - Market Liberals, Social Conservatives, Social Liberals and Social Democrats

Nationalists - National Socialists, Fascists and Paternal Autocrats

I assume this is the case because ideology plays a much bigger role in HoI then in EU.

I strongly doubt it considering most partisans are motivated by nationalism/patriotism. I'm sure different ideologies can be organized under one type of partisan just like nationalists can mean rebels of different nations.

 

[Elecwaves]

Goalie skates are used by goaltenders in ice hockey. They are cut lower in the ankle than a normal hockey skate and the boot sits closer to the ice for a lower center of gravity.

This is relevant how?

 

[von Sachsen]

This is relevant how?

It's most likely a bot.

 

[unmerged(132658)]

I strongly doubt it considering most partisans are motivated by nationalism/patriotism. I'm sure different ideologies can be organized under one type of partisan just like nationalists can mean rebels of different nations.

But I think that is where they are making things different.

I think they did this to make things more simple. Why would they include 3 different kind of rebels if all of them could be of the same ideology? If a Partisan can be a Fascist, a Communist and a Democrat, there would be no need for the other two type rebels (Nationalist and Patriot). PI is making ideology play even a bigger role in HoI3 with the new and improved diplomacy, political parties, etc.

I guess we'll have to wait for an official word from PI but I have a feeling that its based on ideology.

 

[Easy1]

This is the right way to put it

Nation: a country considered as a group of people with the same language, culture and history, who live in a particular area under one government.

A nationalist will thus fight for a state/goverment that is a result of, and consists of common culture, language, history etc.
By this he tries to create/maintain the so-called nation-state. Basques, Scots, Ukrainians, Sudeten Germans, Croats among lots of others.

Partisan: a person who strongly supports a particular leader, group or idea.

Communists, anarchists, fascists, conservatives; those fighting for a certain way of governing, an idea.

Patriot: a person who loves his country and who is ready to defend it against an enemy.

A patriot fights for a community or his state, ussaly across ideas and nationalities. Americans, Frenchmen, Spaniards, Britons etc.

These three terms are, of course, abstract and overlapping. An "insurgency" may include all three concepts. Nevertheless, I believe that the most dominant identity of those who rebel will classify the type of insurgency. Soviets is like both patriots and partisans, however, most classify them as a partisans. A Nazi German is both a nationalist and a partisan, however, most classify him as a nationalist.

 

[unmerged(123225)]

But I think that is where they are making things different.

I think they did this to make things more simple. Why would they include 3 different kind of rebels if all of them could be of the same ideology? If a Partisan can be a Fascist, a Communist and a Democrat, there would be no need for the other two type rebels (Nationalist and Patriot). PI is making ideology play even a bigger role in HoI3 with the new and improved diplomacy, political parties, etc.

I guess we'll have to wait for an official word from PI but I have a feeling that its based on ideology.

I don't know if you play EU3 or not, but in that game (which is where the rebel with a cause feature was first introduced) 'Nationalists' are rebels who try to gain independence and 'Patriots' try to defect the province to another country with core on it. So I'm near 100% sure it has nothing to do with ideologies.

 

[unmerged(132658)]

I don't know if you play EU3 or not, but in that game (which is where the rebel with a cause feature was first introduced) 'Nationalists' are rebels who try to gain independence and 'Patriots' try to defect the province to another country with core on it. So I'm near 100% sure it has nothing to do with ideologies.

I guess that makes more sense .

And I guess their ideology would depend on who is supporting and funding them.

But there are 2 two other rebels, Partisan and the "regular" rebel. What would the role of a Partisan be?

 

[Porkman]

I guess that makes more sense .

And I guess their ideology would depend on who is supporting and funding them.

But there are 2 two other rebels, Partisan and the "regular" rebel. What would the role of a Partisan be?

Partisans would be the funded rebels. If you are the polish government in exile and you fund an insurgency, partisans appear under your control. There also might be spontaneously spawning "nationalist" units, but they would appear by chance.

I think this would be the feature that would allow for a very interesting game in Japanese occupied China. You would have both communist and Guomindang partisans, under the direct control of those factions, along with spontaneous uprisings of disorganized rabble and patriots.

 

[daemonofdecay]

I don't know if you play EU3 or not, but in that game (which is where the rebel with a cause feature was first introduced) 'Nationalists' are rebels who try to gain independence and 'Patriots' try to defect the province to another country with core on it. So I'm near 100% sure it has nothing to do with ideologies.

Those two seem pretty clear to my mind, and they make sense too. Patriots are fighting to return to their parent country, which already exists. Nationalists, on the other hand, wish to form a country that doesn't exist. The terms are interchangeable normally, but Paradox needed to differentiate between the two and thus the two similiar names.

Partisans could then represent a third type where they are fighting for a nation from occupied (not annexed) territory, and will be under a specific nations control whenever spawned. Thus while at war with the USSR Germany would face Soviet partisans, but after the bitter peace event they would be facing Soviet Patriots and/or Ukrainian/Belorussian/etc. Nationalists.

And so not only would the different rebel groups have nationalities, but also political affiliations that would most likely tie into whatever political party is strongest in the relative nation. So for example most Polish nationalists would be close to what Polands government was before it was annexed, and not just randomly Fascist or Left-Wing Radical. This information will be tracked due to the whole 'government in exile' game mechanic afaik.

The mob one seems the kind of rising from your own people due to whatever problem: people rioting in a city over the lack of bread, for instance. Not very organized, but potentially problematic for the government as they could easily spread if the problems are not dealt with and leading to things like coups, increases in dissent, etc.

 

[unmerged(1823)]

As one of the above poster mentioned:
-Nationalists aim to form their own country that has been annexed. (eg. Ukraine nationalists)
-Patriots try to defect the province they take over to the 'rightful' owner.

As for the other two I'm not sure, but my best guess is:
-Partisans: Fighters against the enemy within occupied territories as opposed to annexed territories which are represented by the above two.
-Disorganized rabble: Something like peasants in EU3 when dissent is too high.

I really don't understand why Disorganized rabble is in though. This wasn't medieval times where people picked up pitchforks to go apeshit without any political cause.

this is rather close to truth.. nationalists+patriots are on annexed territory.. partisans against occupation.. disorganised rabble are from where the country goes into close anarchy.

 

[dsteve3]

Couldn't 'dissorganized rabble' be euphemistically applied to the experience in Spain after the new government was elected, but before the 'nationalists' formed? Thats the impression I was given. They aren't a part of the government, per se, but have such a huge impact that political events form around them.

To be honest, the impression I get of this division is not so linear.

Dissorganized Rabble implies sheer mass of people - its where a significant percentage of the population stops being obidient and riots. I imagine we'll see this in urban areas more than rural. This would be the most immediate danger - significant infrastructure damage can occur in a short period of time, and if not quelled quickly, could gain momentum.

Patriots are forces that are acting out of a sence of alignnment with a faction, while Nationalists are local and acting regionally with self-interested goals. Either of these can be represented with units, and will act in either rural or urban settings.



Partisans, in the game sence, will represent actions that are not significant enough to represent with units, but will affect other game factors. It would be more likely that the effect would be regional or territorial as opposed to specific provinces.

Of course, I'm just guessing; but when I look at the period and the history of the different combatants, thats what comes to my mind.

{D'OH!! If I'd waited a couple minutes, I could have seen the explanation...}

 

[StarscreamSWE]

Will this cover for example the volkssturm?

 

[Hansag]

Dissorganized Rabble implies sheer mass of people - its where a significant percentage of the population stops being obedient and riots.

Someone said Dissorganized Rabble was only a medieval thing, I disagree. The Wattz riots comes to mind, as does many other.

EDIT:
As for Volksturm, that's more a militia unit isn't it?
However, since we haven't been told how government in exile works, perhaps one could ship some instructors and munitions to an occupied national province and have it raise a Volksturm militia division... which basically would be a "Patriot" revolt, I'd guess..

 

[unmerged(131221)]

Will this cover for example the volkssturm?

You mean Wehrwolf - Volkssturm was Militia type units.
I dont know where I would classify them... Many of the post war German groups was just a disorganized rabble but there still was some good prepared partisants and resistance. Actions like Ratlines etc