Tweaking technology - technical questions

[unmerged(10423)]

This is not the main thread intended for discussing the setup of technologies in the AJFIFU mod.

Rather, I have a basic problem with tweaking the technology-related csv files. There is a "average date" (due date) field - 2nd column in each file regardless how it is called, and the technology cost of each technology is based of the entry in this field. On the due date for the researched tech? On the due date for the owned tech? On both (probably this one)?

All I know for now is that for _every_ tech, the first row entry in this field must be 1419, otherwise we get a huge technology cost.

But after the first tech is researched, (tech 1 for each group), the cost I see in the financial breakdown is huge (from 30 thsd to millions!) again, no matter what I put inthe due date field. My guess is, the game cannot handle dates prior to 1419 very well... By a kind of miracle, the trading tech works very well, i.e. I obtain reasonable costs for each level researched.

Has anyone researched this issue????

 

[Ayeshteni]

I remember some-one mentioning something like this donkeys ago. Unfortunately, for my part I know no solution (though perhaps some-one from MES could comment? - though I think the technology problem gets worse the further back in date you go, so 751AD is a prob.) Incidently, it is a reason why I am not happy with the tech names I gave as they rarely leave Classical or Late Classical.

yours, hoping a solution is found
Ayeshteni

 

[unmerged(10423)]

After a quick research in the forums, I found the following:

- Guys (and girls?) from the 476 AD scenario claim it is impossible to overcome the technicalities of technologies, thus they start their scenario in... 1476 ! (they substract 1000 years in their minds, so to say).

- Guys (and girls?) from the Mongol Empire Scenario do not mention this problem, they seem quite happy with what they get. They also use the Unlimited Time Patch.

I am puzzled, but will research further.

 

[unmerged(10423)]

Update.
The MES project uses "average dates" in the normal way, i.e. the year is 1150, 1191, etc. Is the year 1000 a problem?

 

[unmerged(10423)]

After a few days of tweaking the tech due dates I come to an unconclusive conclusion... This is a messssss!!!!! Probably results from some "overflows", when the code gets negative numbers duenig computations...

I am close to suggesting, that we add 1000 to all the dates, just like they do it in the 476 scenario.

 

[Ayeshteni]

After a few days of tweaking the tech due dates I come to an unconclusive conclusion... This is a messssss!!!!! Probably results from some "overflows", when the code gets negative numbers duenig computations...

I am close to suggesting, that we add 1000 to all the dates, just like the do it in the 476 scenario.

It is a mess. Adding 1000 is not something I personally particularily wish to do.
All the countries have Latin tech (they need it ), however, what can be done, is to add events (or have included in specific events) that give +to Land and Naval tech. The amounts just need to be substantially higher. There could also be random events (with restrictions of course) that give significant boosts to these two techs.
yours
Ayeshteni

 

[unmerged(10423)]

The tweaking of the tech levels is not an easy task. As stated previously, the main problem are technology costs. They depend on various things, but the most important for us now is the "date factor", which, shortly, punishes nations that are much more advanced than historically achieved. According to the "Economy FAQ", this factor kicks in if the "due date" (from the corresponding tech .csv file) for the tech we already have is more than 24 years after the current date.

The calculation of this factor presented in the FAQ does not hold for our mod; it probably assumes the scenario starting date of 1419. Also, I have an impression from my tests that the "overadvancement"-penalty depends on "due-dates" of all previously achieved tech levels.

One possible reason for my problems may be "overflow errors". If there is a fragment like that in the code:

unsigned int due_date_dif;
due_date_dif = cur_year - 1000; //Scenarios start 1419 or later

then we get due_date_dif a positive number in the range of billions... I don't know how the overall modifier gets smaller so that we see technology costs in the range of millions instead.

-------

Anyway, these are the results of my exhaustive (i.e. I am exhausted...) tests. Hopefully, someone may want to continue so that we have a sensible setup. IMHO, talking about technology groups etc has little meaning before we get rid of those prohibitive technology costs.

I was testing land tech; naval (and infra?) should behave in a similar way; according to the Economy FAQ, trade and infra techs do not have the date malus, but I am sure the due date is used in the calculation of the trade tech cost somehow. I was using Francia (HAB) with the default DP settings and monarch. Starting in 751, with varying initial land tech level. Test "versions" differ by the "due date" values. Modiefied for all levels, displayed for Levels 0 - 3

Note that the costs of the first tech levels in the "normal" EU2 is in the range of several thsd ducats, _but_ our Francia has a total monthly income of 15 initially. Which will have the meaning after we define what the varoius tech levels actually do in the time frame of our mod.

VESRION 1.
Due dates 751, 771, 791, 811, ...
Francia starts with 0, advancing to 1 costs 48013.
Francia starts with 1, advancing to 2 costs 1 (sic!), then 4, 7...
Francia starts with 2, advancing to 3 costs 4, then 7...

VERSION 2.
Due dates 1419, 771, 791, 811, ...
Francia starts with 0, advancing to 1 costs 403, then ~2500000.
Francia starts with 1, advancing to 2 costs ~2500000.
Francia starts with 2, advancing to 3 costs 4, then 6, ...

VERSION 3.
Due dates 1419, 1439, 1459, 1479, ...
Francia starts with 0, advancing to 1 costs 403, then ~560000.
Francia starts with 1, advancing to 2 costs ~560000.
Francia starts with 2, advancing to 3 costs ~602000.

VERSION 4
Due dates 900, 920, 940, 960, ...
Francia starts with 0, advancing to 1 costs 1, then ~15000.
Francia starts with 1, advancing to 2 costs ~15000.
Francia starts with 2, advancing to 3 costs ~22000.
Francia starts with 3, advancing to 4 costs ~31000.

VERSION 5
Due dates 850, 870, 890, 910, ...
Francia starts with 0, advancing to 1 costs 888, then 2700, then 7200.
Francia starts with 1, advancing to 2 costs 2700
Francia starts with 2, advancing to 2 costs 7200

VERSION 6
Due dates 1000, 1020, 1040, 1060,...
Francia starts with 0, advancing to 1 costs 1 (one ducat), then ~60000
Francia starts with 1, advancing to 2 costs ~62000
Francia starts with 2, advancing to 3 costs ~75000

VERSION 7
Due dates 950, 940, 930, 920, ... (decreasing)
Francia starts with 0, advancing to 1 costs 1, then 32, 31, 29, 28, ..
Francia starts with 1, advancing to 2 costs 32, then 31, 29, 28, ..
Francia starts with 2, advancing to 3 costs 31, then 29, 28, ..

Temporary conclusions:
Starting with tech level 0 results with somehow irregular behaviour.
the best chances offers the version 5, which must be modified further.

 

[unmerged(10423)]

These trials were made with the newest beta (19 June version)

VERSION 8
Due dates 850, 860, 870, 880, ...
Francia starts with 0, advancing to 1 costs 888, then 669, then 1500.
Francia starts with 1, advancing to 2 costs 682, then 1477, then 2542
Francia starts with 2, advancing to 3 costs 1489
Francia starts with 3, advancing to 4 costs 2621

My opinion: too cheap!

VERSION 9 (is the same as Ver. 5)
Due dates 850, 870, 890, 910, ...
Francia starts with 0, advancing to 1 costs 888, then 2700, then 7200.
Francia starts with 1, advancing to 2 costs 2729
Francia starts with 2, advancing to 3 costs 7268
Francia starts with 3, advancing to 4 costs 12590

Conclusion: the use of Beta does not change the validity of the previous tests.

 

[unmerged(10423)]

Further tests with the newest Beta (June 19th, 2004 version).
I assume that not all the 40 technologies will be used in our mod; probably 12 or so should suffice.

VERSION 10
Due dates 850, 870, 950, 970, 990, 1010...
Francia starts with 0, advancing to 1 (due 870) costs 888, then 2679
Francia starts with 1, advancing to 2 (due 950) costs 2729
Francia starts with 2, advancing to 3 (due 970) costs 72627 (ca. 300 years of full investment)
Francia starts with 3, advancing to 4 (due 990) costs 35322
Francia starts with 4, advancing to 5 (due 1010) costs 45152

VERSION 11
Due dates 850, 870, 910, 930, 950, 970...
Francia starts with 0, advancing to 1 (due 870) costs 888, then 2679
Francia starts with 1, advancing to 2 (due 910) costs 2729
Francia starts with 2, advancing to 3 (due 930) costs 21801
Francia starts with 3, advancing to 4 (due 950) costs 19041 (can anyone explain the drop here?)
Francia starts with 4, advancing to 5 (due 970) costs 26618


VERSION 12 - nonlinear
Due dates 850, 870, 910, 970, 1050, 1150...
Francia starts with 0, advancing to 1 (due 870) costs 888, then 2679
Francia starts with 1, advancing to 2 (due 910) costs 2729
Francia starts with 2, advancing to 3 (due 970) costs 21801
Francia starts with 3, advancing to 4 (due 1050) costs 85686
Francia starts with 4, advancing to 5 (due 1150) costs 260883

VERSION 13 - nonlinear slower growing
Due dates 850, 870, 900, 940, 990, 1050...
Francia starts with 0, advancing to 1 (due 870) costs 888, then 2679
Francia starts with 1, advancing to 2 (due 900) costs 2729
Francia starts with 2, advancing to 3 (due 940) costs 13323
Francia starts with 3, advancing to 4 (due 990) costs 39810
Francia starts with 4, advancing to 5 (due 1050) costs 98094

Here, advancing from 4 to 5 is impossible, but why? I suspect years close to 1000 are messing things up.

VERSION 14 - nonlinear, trimmed
Due dates 850, 870, 900, 940, 990, 991, 992...
Francia starts with 0, advancing to 1 (due 870) costs 888, then 2679
Francia starts with 1, advancing to 2 (due 900) costs 2729
Francia starts with 2, advancing to 3 (due 940) costs 13323
Francia starts with 3, advancing to 4 (due 990) costs 39810
Francia starts with 4, advancing to 5 (due 991) costs 98094 (AGAIN!)
Francia starts with 5, advancing to 6 (due 992) costs 2993 only.

VERSION 15 - nonlinear, trimmed earlier
Due dates 850, 870, 900, 940, 970, 990, 992...
Francia starts with 0, advancing to 1 (due 870) costs 888, then 2679
Francia starts with 1, advancing to 2 (due 900) costs 2729
Francia starts with 2, advancing to 3 (due 940) costs 13323
Francia starts with 3, advancing to 4 (due 970) costs 39810
Francia starts with 4, advancing to 5 (due 990) costs 50448
Francia starts with 5, advancing to 6 (due 992) costs 45152

Conclusions:
The "Due dates" of the already achieved technologies matter most. Somehow, the distance between the "due date" our current technology and the previous one also matters, the program does not like big numbers here.

I like the version 15 most and will build on that.