Tweak the Mandate of Heaven for Dynamic Gameplay

[Trensicourt]

I think the Mandate of Heaven is just a waiting game with the initial high and a strong dose of rebel simulator afterwards. I have a few ideas in mind that could do better and spice up the mechanic. Full disclaimer, each idea in succession is more radical than the next but in my opinion it will also be more fun.

First, each time a reform is passed for the Mandate of Heaven, they are 15% cheaper for the next country that takes the Mandate of Heaven. This allows successor states to progress their reforms faster. I think this is realistic because new dynasties often base their government on the framework of the last.

Second, mandate can be used to Sinicize the nation's primary culture. This should be the first reform and gives -1 unrest. This is automatically passed by any nation with Chinese as a primary culture. This would mimic the old Sinicize decisions. In exchange, all mechanics that automatically Sinicize their culture should be removed. It's very historical for invading countries to become assimilated into the Chinese cultural sphere. This means Manchu cannot automatically be accepted by the Chinese through decisions. Instead they have to pass this first reform, making it harder for the Manchus (specifically in player hands) to curb stomp China. I think this makes sense and adds a challenge for non-Chinese nations from holding the Mandate of Heaven without first becoming part of the Chinese culture group. Afterall, you can't really justify the free Chinese cores without being Chinese.

Third, the Mandate of Heaven should be allow the Mandate holder to convert their mandate to decrease the development to mandate ratio for "Elevating Tribute" after you have taken "Elevating Tribute". As a nation grows and advances, it should be able to handle administrating larger subjects. I think this reduction in development-mandate ratio should be 2%. So over the course of the game, you can convert larger and larger tributes. Simultaneously, this would allow for more intervals of low mandate. A Ming that passes all reforms is unlikely to ever have low mandate without player intervention. However, by constantly reducing Mandate, super-Ming would always have moments of critical weakness even with more vassals.

Lastly, add the ability to create a Chinese vassal/march to boost Mandate. The player can choose to play as one of these nations. Often when a dynasty is collapsing, it seeks recognitions and placation from its subjects. To do so, it will often give the most rebellious and powerful governors autonomy in exchange for their loyalty. This was true for both the Ming and Qing dynasty (the three feudatory revolt). The released vassal can be designated as a march or a regular vassal. The subject tag is from the non-existent country with the most Chinese cores. Once released, that subject will gain land and cores on its entire region and a decently sized army. They will start out with -100% liberty desire that will decay 5% a month. In other words, these warlords will help you kill off rebels in exchange for autonomy and (brief) loyalty (think of the Han dynasty collapse and Three Kingdoms). I think the appropriate amount of mandate gained from releasing a vassal/march is 1 mandate per province. So instead of the southern feudatories that Ming releases through an event, we can adjust the ai to release vassals in rapid succession depending on how severe it thinks its situation is. For example, If Ming has zero mandate, the ai may spit out three feudatories to get ~30 mandate and assistance in killing rebels. If let's say Ming is able to recover quickly enough, it can rein in these subjects but more often than not, it's a poison pill.

Tell me what you guys think of the concepts. I don't expect all of them to be enticing to your gameplay preferences but hopefully one catches your eye. Also, numbers can vary due to gameplay reasons. Keep that in mind before judging my numbers.

 

[annulen]

First, each time a reform is passed for the Mandate of Heaven, they are 15% cheaper for the next country that takes the Mandate of Heaven. This allows successor states to progress their reforms faster. I think this is realistic because new dynasties often base their government on the framework of the last.

I agree this would be somewhat more realistic. But on the other hand it creates incentive to delay taking Mandate to get reforms easier.

And "easier" here is not limited to "faster". Right now after passing reform you end up at 30 mandate, which imposes harsh penalties to army quality, manpower, economy, and increases global unrest. You want to raise mandate to at least 50 as fast as possible, to do this you have to fulfill missions and squeeze out every last +0.01 of monthly mandate growth (which includes keeping stability at +3).

With your suggestion if player takes Mandate from Ming, reforms cost is 60. So after passing reform you end up at 40 mandate, which means your penalties are halved. Growth of mandate becomes twice less vital. And if you receive random event giving +5 mandate shortly after passing reform, you end up at 45 with a half of penalties of 40. Nothing to fear of, and it will be gone after a couple of years.

So I think decreasing reform cost would remove pressure from Mandate gameplay and therefore make it more monotonous, not dynamic.

I think to create dynamics, more ways to lose mandate are needed. In the past you were losing mandate for having land borders with non-tributaries, but that was a bad design and was removed. However, now in single player game there is almost nothing that can add visible negative factors to monthly mandate change (provided that you don't let enemies to occupy your lands and don't let corruption loose, though the latter is not a concern if you are Confucian and have high Harmony).

Third, the Mandate of Heaven should be allow the Mandate holder to convert their mandate to decrease the development to mandate ratio for "Elevating Tribute" after you have taken "Elevating Tribute". As a nation grows and advances, it should be able to handle administrating larger subjects. I think this reduction in development-mandate ratio should be 2%. So over the course of the game, you can convert larger and larger tributes. Simultaneously, this would allow for more intervals of low mandate. A Ming that passes all reforms is unlikely to ever have low mandate without player intervention. However, by constantly reducing Mandate, super-Ming would always have moments of critical weakness even with more vassals.

I agree, elevating small tributaries to vassals has little practical sense, and with 40% ratio theoretical limit of conversion is 250 dev (in practice lower as you don't want to have 0 mandate). I think it might make sense to decrease ratio each time you elevate tributary, so you start with small countries and proceed to larger and larger targets. It may also depend on absolutism value.

 

[Trensicourt]

I agree this would be somewhat more realistic. But on the other hand it creates incentive to delay taking Mandate to get reforms easier.

This doesn't change anything with how Mandate is typically claimed with current gameplay. Every guide will tell you to nearly kill off Ming before you take the Mandate. Also, there is no guarantee that Ming will be able to pass all if not even half the reform. It's not fun to wait and gamble on the off-chance that it does happen.

So I think decreasing reform cost would remove pressure from Mandate gameplay and therefore make it more monotonous, not dynamic.

I think it would be contrary. The Mandate is honestly not a fun mechanic and it has a long windup before the more fun mechanics are enabled or be able to be used consistently. For example, utilizing too much meritocracy early on in decrees is not fun because it's unlikely you have the income to support high meritocracy. Having consistently low Mandate for early reforms is not interesting either. The early reforms don't enable the player to do more fun things but instead hamper the player the experience, since in general the Mandate is a debuff for those who want to expand fast. which is most of the player base.

Also, I think you may be slightly misunderstanding my suggestion about reform reduction. I meant that for the specific reform that was passed before, that specific reform would be 15% cheaper. So if Ming is only able to pass the first two reforms, then those two reforms would be 15% cheaper. The rest is standard cost because the previous dynasty never managed to pass them.

I think to create dynamics, more ways to lose mandate are needed. In the past you were losing mandate for having land borders with non-tributaries, but that was a bad design and was removed. However, now in single player game there is almost nothing that can add visible negative factors to monthly mandate change (provided that you don't let enemies to occupy your lands and don't let corruption loose, though the latter is not a concern if you are Confucian and have high Harmony).

I do agree there needs to be more ways to loose mandate. Personally, I would love to see tech disparity as one reason of loosing Mandate. Any neighbor with higher tech than Ming should cause Ming to loose Mandate.

I agree, elevating small tributaries to vassals has little practical sense, and with 40% ratio theoretical limit of conversion is 250 dev (in practice lower as you don't want to have 0 mandate). I think it might make sense to decrease ratio each time you elevate tributary, so you start with small countries and proceed to larger and larger targets. It may also depend on absolutism value.

I do like the idea of decreasing ratio each time you elevate tributary, but would have to scale with the development of that tribute. Unfortunately, this is not viable late game where almost all of Ming's neighbors or whoever holds the Mandate (typically Chinese successor states) will be surrounded by those who already cannot be elevated.

 

[annulen]

The early reforms don't enable the player to do more fun things but instead hamper the player the experience, since in general the Mandate is a debuff for those who want to expand fast. which is most of the player base.

If you want to expand fast, you can just let mandate grow and keep it at 100, enjoying its global unrest reduction, stability cost discount, and WE reduction. It's not a debuff, it's a buff.

 

[annulen]

For example, utilizing too much meritocracy early on in decrees is not fun because it's unlikely you have the income to support high meritocracy.

I guess you talk about starting as Ming here, because otherwise when you take Mandate you should be able to afford advisors and make meritocracy grow. Also, Qing and Shun have meritocracy in national ideas, maybe some other countries with legitimacy in NI should be also given meritocracy.