Tver´s vodka is of very stronk.

[Beagá]

I´m afraid this overdeveloped grain province will conquer the world.

Help me senpai

Seriously now: OPM development is broken. Yes was worse when Common Sense was released but still is.

Let´s brainstorm a bit. My suggestions.

1- Make development a process like Missionary is. 3 years for development. Ok cost? Maybe longer?
2- War should destroy development in some way or make the above process stop if province is occupied.

OR

3- Province development should ALWAYS be happening with monarch point use making the process faster. Example: Venice would gain one development point in each area every 20 years but with monarch point use making process faster. Problem with this would be massive memory use. It´s calculation for every province in the world after all, and there are many...

Also building spam is real too, but that´s for another thread

 

[Voltion99]

What's the problem here exactly? That populations and demographics change?

 

[Beagá]

You think it´s ok for countries that have 30 provinces having barely extra development per province while an OPM does "because it has no where to spend mana"?

Why France can´t have an average of 30 development per province if that Tver has 32?

 

[Zelius]

Isn't Tver already a high development province at the start of the game? I think it might even have 20-ish...

 

[grommile]

Isn't Tver already a high development province at the start of the game? I think it might even have 20-ish...

Yes, Tver starts with 8/8/6 development (total 22).

 

[King Ari]

That is totally fine an expected... My issue is that Muscovy doesn't eat them sooner.

In my current game lubeck and hamburg are up to 40ish development so far. Silly opms

 

[Voltion99]

You think it´s ok for countries that have 30 provinces having barely extra development per province while an OPM does "because it has no where to spend mana"?

Why France can´t have an average of 30 development per province if that Tver has 32?

Ok I think you need to remember what Monarch points represent, which is the ability for a ruler to enpower and control his nation..
I think the problem is that Monarch points are static, when they really should all start at 1 1 1 but then events trigger that makes a heir get better stats.

 

[Oldpara]

I am fine with this. I had Frankfurt 49 development and Saxe-Luxemburg 47 to eat in my last game. Surprisingly with Influence, Nationalism CB and claim it generated only 5-8 AE inside HRE for each.

I like small countires growing high.

 

[Chimerae]

I actually like high development OPMs. A bunch of these in coalition can surprise you with a serious army.

 

[masteriw]

So you have a problem with an independent Moscow becoming a rich province...?

It also seems that you want to see every French province, even the most backwards countryside farmland, to be at least as developed as Moscow.

 

[KlinkerFyren]

I´m afraid this overdeveloped grain province will conquer the world.

Help me senpai

Seriously now: OPM development is broken. Yes was worse when Common Sense was released but still is.

Let´s brainstorm a bit. My suggestions.

1- Make development a process like Missionary is. 3 years for development. Ok cost? Maybe longer?
2- War should destroy development in some way or make the above process stop if province is occupied.

OR

3- Province development should ALWAYS be happening with monarch point use making the process faster. Example: Venice would gain one development point in each area every 20 years but with monarch point use making process faster. Problem with this would be massive memory use. It´s calculation for every province in the world after all, and there are many...

Also building spam is real too, but that´s for another thread

I saw something similar to this when playing as Muscovy, where despite the fact that my empire stretched all the way from Yarkand in the east to Kiev in the west, Ryazan refused to become my vassal since they kept developing their two provinces.

I am not entirely sure there is an elegant way to fix OPNs and development however. Still I kinda like the idea about having a "development missionary" guy, who could work like a missionary or diplomat, where you send him to a province to develop +1 point of something (maybe make it random which one?). Certain ideas/events could include a higher number of these guys, like the economic or administrative idea group. The actual development should drain away monarch points, similarly to something like when you diplo-annex nations.

 

[Beagá]

So you have a problem with an independent Moscow becoming a rich province...?

It also seems that you want to see every French province, even the most backwards countryside farmland, to be at least as developed as Moscow.

Awful strawmen. 1/10 because you wrote 2 lines. The iromy in your post is that many capitals, including London, have less development. That a provincial captal, inland, no ports, barely any trade, isolated from the word., has more development than London.

LOGIC!

Explian, genius.

 

[Bavarian Steve]

Development for large nations depends on getting the cost of development reduced while also lowering the need for monarch points in other areas, ie technology and stability. Lowering technology costs ideas can add up to hundreds of extra monarch points per technology level. With Florence, If you take Innovative, plutocratic, and administrative as your first three idea groups leads to very tall and very wide empires while causing your technology cost to be under 100 for administrative tech levels on the first year they are no longer ahead of time. For the 4th group with florence, take economic ideas. By the time you complete it universities should be able to be built. Every new province captured gets one built. Combined with the economics finisher, the university mass built greatly reduces wide scale development costs. Now combine the tech cost reducer ideas, and the development reducers and you can build a multi continent tall empire with no provinces under 20 development and a lot of 40 or higher development cities. In my most successful game using this strategy, I owned almost 3 continents (europe, africa, most of asia) with every single province over 20 development. The reason I used Florence as my example has a lot to do with their first tradition that lowers tech costs across the board after only 3 techs, which the third idea from innovative works very well with (both are 5 percent off tech costs for a 10 percent total... all other countries take 3 full idea groups finished to get to this point... florence takes just 3 ideas).

 

[Beagá]

I like small countires growing high.

I dislike only THEM growing high.

 

[pikaemperor]

Development for large nations depends on getting the cost of development reduced while also lowering the need for monarch points in other areas, ie technology and stability. Lowering technology costs ideas can add up to hundreds of extra monarch points per technology level. With Florence, If you take Innovative, plutocratic, and administrative as your first three idea groups leads to very tall and very wide empires while causing your technology cost to be under 100 for administrative tech levels on the first year they are no longer ahead of time. For the 4th group with florence, take economic ideas. By the time you complete it universities should be able to be built. Every new province captured gets one built. Combined with the economics finisher, the university mass built greatly reduces wide scale development costs. Now combine the tech cost reducer ideas, and the development reducers and you can build a multi continent tall empire with no provinces under 20 development and a lot of 40 or higher development cities. In my most successful game using this strategy, I owned almost 3 continents (europe, africa, most of asia) with every single province over 20 development. The reason I used Florence as my example has a lot to do with their first tradition that lowers tech costs across the board after only 3 techs, which the third idea from innovative works very well with (both are 5 percent off tech costs for a 10 percent total... all other countries take 3 full idea groups finished to get to this point... florence takes just 3 ideas).

Stacking tech cost is not a very efficient way to get MP(10% is only 60MP which is meh), administrative saves tons of MP from coring. In the end most of the -tech cost ideas don't pay for them selves even if taken early(20 techs with full innovative are 600MP while filling the idea group cost cost 2800ADM).

 

[Bavarian Steve]

Stacking tech cost is not a very efficient way to get MP(10% is only 60MP which is meh), administrative saves tons of MP from coring. In the end most of the -tech cost ideas don't pay for them selves even if taken early(20 techs with full innovative are 600MP while filling the idea group cost cost 2800ADM).

With all the tech discounts, you can get 400-500 extra monarch points per level per mana type (using florence as my most immediate example... new admin tech levels can cost them 84 admin points)... also dont forget that every idea you choose lowers tech cost

 

[pikaemperor]

With all the tech discounts, you can get 400-500 extra monarch points per level per mana type (using florence as my most immediate example... new admin tech levels can cost them 84 admin points)... also dont forget that every idea you choose lowers tech cost

But how much does it cost to get those discounts, if it costs MP to get them you need to factor that in in order to see how much MP is saved. Tech discounts are only worth if going way ahead of time in mil tech to wreck your enemies with better tactics(but then mil stacking is better), or if they are "free" like that dili-something decision that the hindus have when owning a muslim province. Point is innovative and plutocratic are sub-par idea groups that tricks people into thinking they are saving MANA while sometimes not only they are not saving anything(or saving very little) they are using more to fill the group(and the other stuff in the group is soooo weak), yep they are trickster ideas .

 

[Bavarian Steve]

But how much does it cost to get those discounts, if it costs MP to get them you need to factor that in in order to see how much MP is saved. Tech discounts are only worth if going way ahead of time in mil tech to wreck your enemies with better tactics(but then mil stacking is better), or if they are "free" like that dili-something decision that the hindus have when owning a muslim province. Point is innovative and plutocratic are sub-par idea groups that tricks people into thinking they are saving MANA while sometimes not only they are not saving anything(or saving very little) they are using more to fill the group(and the other stuff in the group is soooo weak), yep they are trickster ideas .

maybe for other nations i see your logic, but those two groups seem custom made for florence because of their traditions and ideas... try them and then admin in a florence game and you are king of the world due to extra mana and tons of cheap mercs. BTW I have never taken innovative with any other nation. The only reason I tried this combo is because of the exact thing the OP is expressing... So I set out to find a way to have a large nation with tons of development. with florence, and those groups, you have 24,000 extra monarch points on average over a game than if you had none of these variables.

 

[misiceman]

With all the tech discounts, you can get 400-500 extra monarch points per level per mana type (using florence as my most immediate example... new admin tech levels can cost them 84 admin points)... also dont forget that every idea you choose lowers tech cost

Which negates to an extent the fact that techs actually increase in cost as the game progresses. Each tech is not 600 +/- discounts for western the entire game. There is also a tech penalty (along with the - for ideas and neighbor) associated with the game date. It's the finishers for admin, diplo and aristocratic which add the extra -10% that make that single idea worth more then the generic idea for a longer period of time (I am not even considering the admin saving through -25% from admin, or the diplo saving from innovative or the policy with the two). The fact that we are restricted in our idea choices is whats causing many people to not see that penalty really matter anymore but back when you could stack ideas in their respective MPs you could get techs really low to the point were if a majority of Mil ideas were taken you would want to take another mil idea just not to waste Mil points to the point of absurdity.

Also the only way that techs would be as low as around 100 is if you are WAY behind in tech not at the Ahead of time limit (I.e. waiting for the exact year to save all possible MP and avoiding the malus) even with the extra -5% from neighbor bonus you are still several 100 MP per tech when at time of tech. The only other would be at the END of the game where quite frankly it is coring time not admin which is the limiter on expansion on the high levels (WC) While Florence probably has one of the best tech advantages to a player in the game you have to include all the penalties at the exact date that tech is acquired. By the end of the game there is a +30% penalty.

If my quick math is right aroun the mid 1700 you can have it VERY low but not 84 (asuming you didnt stack admin ideas like crazy).

Two admin ideas (one is admin the other innovative) with tuscan national ideas is around 150 admin per tech NOT counting the penalty which should push it to about 200 +/- a bit. Very low but not the crazy 84. Also needed was around 4580 admin to get the ideas. which represents about 15 tech levels of savings applied to the ideas.

And back on the topic of Florence... republic.... lots of extra MPs..... lots of dev..... I think it is well established how republics > monarchies in most situations in this game if not all (except no PUs or Emperor).

 

[Jamey]

I´m afraid this overdeveloped grain province will conquer the world.

Help me senpai

Seriously now: OPM development is broken. Yes was worse when Common Sense was released but still is.

Let´s brainstorm a bit. My suggestions.

1- Make development a process like Missionary is. 3 years for development. Ok cost? Maybe longer?
2- War should destroy development in some way or make the above process stop if province is occupied.

OR

3- Province development should ALWAYS be happening with monarch point use making the process faster. Example: Venice would gain one development point in each area every 20 years but with monarch point use making process faster. Problem with this would be massive memory use. It´s calculation for every province in the world after all, and there are many...

Also building spam is real too, but that´s for another thread

That image hosting site spams app download requests on iOS. Please find a better one.

Beyond that, meh. Development happens.