Tuscany Ironman

[grisamentum]

Definitely this, good way to advance north.



You need to do it before 1544 and attack Austria while Styria is your vassal before 1544 again. You can 'liberate' Styria entirely if you do it before 1644 (get 100% warscore vs. Austria and tell them to free Styria), but if you plan to catch one province and release (the much better option), they will be reduced to a 1544 expiration date on the unreleased provinces. The moment you, in control of them, attack Austria pre-1544, however, the timer will extend by 100 years again, and will be reset by any subsequent wars vs. Austria.

Although it's worth noting that if you declare war the same month that you release them, the date will not have a chance to update.

Ie, release Styria on December 1, 1544 means that the core date will not update until January 1, 1545. Declare war in between and the Styrian cores will not disappear.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

So thus far I haven't thought much about goals. I'd like to get the achievement, which would be easy at this point, but don't want to sacrifice my NIs (and don't want to take Rome yet). I'll probably save that until I get tired of the the game just before I stop playing. What goals do people suggest? I'm not colonizing the Americas; some of the other suggestions above I will consider. Any other suggestions?

Also, is there any way to deal with Savoy aside from taking a province in the first war, and suffering the hit for refusing to return Imperial territory (which will end my Austrian alliance), and then vassalizing it in the second war? They have 4 provinces at the moment.

 

[unmerged(804580)]

So thus far I haven't thought much about goals. I'd like to get the achievement, which would be easy at this point, but don't want to sacrifice my NIs (and don't want to take Rome yet). I'll probably save that until I get tired of the the game just before I stop playing. What goals do people suggest? I'm not colonizing the Americas; some of the other suggestions above I will consider. Any other suggestions?

Also, is there any way to deal with Savoy aside from taking a province in the first war, and suffering the hit for refusing to return Imperial territory (which will end my Austrian alliance), and then vassalizing it in the second war? They have 4 provinces at the moment.

I don't know why you'd want to ally Austria in the first place though. If you're taking imperial provinces for yourself, you will suffer relationship costs with them. Any chance you could ally France instead?

How stable is the Austrian grip on the Kaiserthrone? In my Tuscany campaign Austria got itself into coalitions and lost it, which eventually allowed me to dismantle the HRE altogether relatively easily. If you're going to remain as a Republic, then it's probably a better idea to try to dismantle it altogether since the reforms kind of screw you up. If you can win one major war and force them to release Styria, you'll really hurt Austria beyond recovery. You just need to do one or the other: seize the Empire or destroy the Empire if you want to grow big.

Regarding the long term goals, mine was to take over all the Mediterranean coastal provinces. My early-game allies were Venice, Hungary and Castile. Mid-game France and Russia, late-game none. I went south first, bringing Castile in against Aragon as soon as possible to reduce their chance of getting allied to each other. If they ally each other, or if Iberian Wedding fires and Castile gets both Aragon and Naples, honestly you're kind of screwed.

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

So thus far I haven't thought much about goals. I'd like to get the achievement, which would be easy at this point, but don't want to sacrifice my NIs (and don't want to take Rome yet). I'll probably save that until I get tired of the the game just before I stop playing. What goals do people suggest? I'm not colonizing the Americas; some of the other suggestions above I will consider. Any other suggestions?

Also, is there any way to deal with Savoy aside from taking a province in the first war, and suffering the hit for refusing to return Imperial territory (which will end my Austrian alliance), and then vassalizing it in the second war? They have 4 provinces at the moment.

Just start a different war before peacing out with Savoy. The emperor can only demand unlawful territory while both him and you are at peace. Or engineer situations where your actual target is a junior partner in the war so you can take their province in a seperate peace and keep the rest of the war going while you core it.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Just start a different war before peacing out with Savoy. The emperor can only demand unlawful territory while both him and you are at peace. Or engineer situations where your actual target is a junior partner in the war so you can take their province in a seperate peace and keep the rest of the war going while you core it.

Ohh, nice, thanks.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

I don't know why you'd want to ally Austria in the first place though. If you're taking imperial provinces for yourself, you will suffer relationship costs with them. Any chance you could ally France instead?

Well they have been very helpful in several wars - even, under the right circumstances, against other HRE members, and alliances with BOTH Austria and France have made a couple of otherwise tough wars trivially easy. But I do need to start thinking about how I'm going to take them on - of course the French alliance should help there.

It does look like dismantling the HRE is something I want to do eventually.

 

[thesodality]

I don't know why you'd want to ally Austria in the first place though. If you're taking imperial provinces for yourself, you will suffer relationship costs with them. Any chance you could ally France instead?

How stable is the Austrian grip on the Kaiserthrone? In my Tuscany campaign Austria got itself into coalitions and lost it, which eventually allowed me to dismantle the HRE altogether relatively easily. If you're going to remain as a Republic, then it's probably a better idea to try to dismantle it altogether since the reforms kind of screw you up. If you can win one major war and force them to release Styria, you'll really hurt Austria beyond recovery. You just need to do one or the other: seize the Empire or destroy the Empire if you want to grow big.

Regarding the long term goals, mine was to take over all the Mediterranean coastal provinces. My early-game allies were Venice, Hungary and Castile. Mid-game France and Russia, late-game none. I went south first, bringing Castile in against Aragon as soon as possible to reduce their chance of getting allied to each other. If they ally each other, or if Iberian Wedding fires and Castile gets both Aragon and Naples, honestly you're kind of screwed.

This is a pretty good strategy although I must point out a few posituves about having Austria as an early ally. In my experience they have prevented any of the states in the north like Milan and Venice from messing with me. France is a good ally as well but occasionally is unable to help in Italian conflicts due to military access constraints thru states like Savoy. The AI still doesn't seem to acquire the access it needs at times. As emperor, Austria doesn't have this problem.

In my current Tuscany game, Castile has proven an excellent early game ally as confrontation with Aragon was almost guaranteed as I planned to expand south. You will run into problems should the two of them ally or merge so it's best to turn them against each other as early as possible. Castile absorbing Aragon while they continue to hold Sicily or Naples can be a real headache for an Italian player.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Just start a different war before peacing out with Savoy. The emperor can only demand unlawful territory while both him and you are at peace. Or engineer situations where your actual target is a junior partner in the war so you can take their province in a seperate peace and keep the rest of the war going while you core it.

This advice was golden. After vassalizing Venice and diplo annexing Milan, I DOWed Savoy using the revolutionary war CB. My ally France joined, which was key as you'll see for other reasons, as did Savoy's allies, including the Papal State. While still at war, I DOWed Genoa with the subjugation CB - which had France as an ally along with the Papal States and Avignon. Since the former was my ally in an ongoing war, and the latter two opponents, Genoa was alone. Not having to fight France was kind of a big deal.

Then peaced out Savoy (waiting a couple months to avoid possible CtA), taking Cueno and coring it, reducing Savoy to 3 provinces for a (hopefully) later subjugation CB. Then waited for Cueno to core and then vassalizing Genoa.

So it's January 1506, I have 14 provinces in Tuscany proper as well as 6 vassals with 20 provinces. Unfortunately 2 over the diplo limit - I need to annex some vassals, but can only do so slowly for a variety of reasons, including not wanting to trash my Republican tradition too badly. Ferrara is next to diplo annex, though. May need to take a few years to consolidate my gains.

Probably time to think about taking on Austria. (They left our alliance but offered another one which I accepted, so for the moment I am again allied with France AND Austria. The two of them fought a war against each other while I was at war with Genoa; neither called me in.) Also interesting, while I was at war Naples broke free from Aragon. Sadly before I noticed they had allied with Austria. (If I had noticed in time I would have just gone ahead and DoWed - would not have even had to take a stability hit as I have the Revolutionary War CB.). But Naples looks like one of my next targets for sure.

Edit - the clear next move is to get a subjugation CB against Savoy, call in Austria, then DoW Naples. Might even then white peace out Savoy - as much as I want to vassalize them, I probably need to wait until I absorb a couple vassals - but just use that war as a mechanism to keep Austria from coming to Naples' aid.

Second edit - even better, I can do this now - DoW Provance (Revolutionary War). They have no meaningful allies. Call in Austria, then DoW Naples. Only question will be how many provinces to take from Naples in the first war.

I'm actually thinking this would have made a decent AAR. Haven't been taking screen shots, though.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

One more question: what to pick for my third idea group? First two were diplomacy and defensive.

I'm thinking maybe expansion. In the short run mainly for the plus 2 diplomatic relations. In the long run, I'm thinking maybe taking a run at India. Just a little worried that depending upon the spread of discoveries may make that difficult or impossible, Also, if I go that route, should I grab Gaza and Sinai from the Mamelukes?

 

[grisamentum]

One more question: what to pick for my third idea group? First two were diplomacy and defensive.

I'm thinking maybe expansion. In the short run mainly for the plus 2 diplomatic relations. In the long run, I'm thinking maybe taking a run at India. Just a little worried that depending upon the spread of discoveries may make that difficult or impossible, Also, if I go that route, should I grab Gaza and Sinai from the Mamelukes?

Expansion CB doesn't work against Muslim tech group, just Indian/Nomad/Chinese.

 

[thesodality]

Only question will be how many provinces to take from Naples in the first war.

I believe that you need to take three provinces from Naples in the first war if you want to vassalize them in the second. That is of course, assuming they still have all their starting lands and haven't expanded. I understand that 3 provinces can pose a significant overextension penalty and the admin cost of coring them can be high. However, two wars are usually better than three.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Expansion CB doesn't work against Muslim tech group, just Indian/Nomad/Chinese.

Oh, I know. The point of Gaza/Sinai would be a quicker route to India - rather than a string of colonies in Africa & around the cape, I can colonize ... forget the name of it, the province on the horn of Africa ... and then head straight for India. The only real question that I have is how long I'll need to wait for the spread of discoveries to allow me to do that.

Note that, since this is only my second ironman game, I am lacking in achievements. It would be fun to get the India achievement as Tuscany. The only possible problem might be Portugal or Spain beating me to some of their provinces.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

I believe that you need to take three provinces from Naples in the first war if you want to vassalize them in the second. That is of course, assuming they still have all their starting lands and haven't expanded. I understand that 3 provinces can pose a significant overextension penalty and the admin cost of coring them can be high. However, two wars are usually better than three.

Yeah, you are probably correct. However, I am in a bit of a bind in terms of diplomatic relations at this point, so not sure if I want to vassalize them any time soon. Still, for a lot of reasons, prioritizing Naples over (say) Savoy as my next vassal makes sense. And I can delay the second war if need be. AND my current AE is low enough that even taking three provinces from them likely won't provoke a coalition. And I have some excess Admin points for coring. So most likely I will take your advice.

 

[grisamentum]

Oh, I know. The point of Gaza/Sinai would be a quicker route to India - rather than a string of colonies in Africa & around the cape, I can colonize ... forget the name of it, the province on the horn of Africa ... and then head straight for India.

Oh, I see. Though if you have the expansion CB, you don't need the colony in Majeerteen (that horn of Africa colony). You can just declare war on an Indian nation and let your vassals find their way over.

 

[thesodality]

Yeah, you are probably correct. However, I am in a bit of a bind in terms of diplomatic relations at this point, so not sure if I want to vassalize them any time soon. Still, for a lot of reasons, prioritizing Naples over (say) Savoy as my next vassal makes sense. And I can delay the second war if need be. AND my current AE is low enough that even taking three provinces from them likely won't provoke a coalition. And I have some excess Admin points for coring. So most likely I will take your advice.

I am always paranoid concerning Naples when playing as an Italian minor. They are relatively weak and are quite frequently conquered by more formidable opponents if left to their own devices for too long.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Oh, I see. Though if you have the expansion CB, you don't need the colony in Majeerteen (that horn of Africa colony). You can just declare war on an Indian nation and let your vassals find their way over.

Ah, good point. But coring will still be a problem without a nearby colony. Though if I vassalize then annex ... hmm, I am learning more about the game all the time (and playing ironman really helps that process along).

Edit - I'm really a little surprised at how easy this game gets once you master the mechanics regarding expansion. The Subjugation CB especially is a tad overpowered - though of course you still take an AE hit when you annex.

 

[grisamentum]

Ah, good point. But coring will still be a problem without a nearby colony. Though if I vassalize then annex ... hmm, I am learning more about the game all the time (and playing ironman really helps that process along).

Yeah personally I do vassalize then annex for cores, but you'll have to look at the the reality of the cores in India. India is usually a huge mess with quite a few large nation cores hidden away.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

This is a little off topic, but it's my thread so I can hijack it. Thinking about the issues I've been having with too many diplomatic relations, I'm tempted to try Savoy at some point. Two more diplomatic relations = very nice.

 

[unmerged(804580)]

This is a little off topic, but it's my thread so I can hijack it. Thinking about the issues I've been having with too many diplomatic relations, I'm tempted to try Savoy at some point. Two more diplomatic relations = very nice.

Again off topic, but there's a really neat unique government type called Shogunate. It gives you +4 dip rel. It's only available if you start as Japan, and with diplomatic and expansion ideas you'll support +12. Just don't unify Japan - if you do, you get monarch points bonus but you'll become a feudal monarchy. As an extra bonus, your vassals (not just Daimyos, regular vassals) will have ability to ally each other and declare war against each other. It makes a fun game. You can vassalize one mid-sized nation and one OPM in separate peace deals without worrying about the dip rel - not only that you have plenty, the bigger one will eat up the smaller one on their own anyways!

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Again off topic, but there's a really neat unique government type called Shogunate. It gives you +4 dip rel. It's only available if you start as Japan, and with diplomatic and expansion ideas you'll support +12. Just don't unify Japan - if you do, you get monarch points bonus but you'll become a feudal monarchy. As an extra bonus, your vassals (not just Daimyos, regular vassals) will have ability to ally each other and declare war against each other. It makes a fun game. You can vassalize one mid-sized nation and one OPM in separate peace deals without worrying about the dip rel - not only that you have plenty, the bigger one will eat up the smaller one on their own anyways!

I should try them - maybe next. Also thinking about revisiting Muscovy or Portugal or France now that I am playing ironman.