Tuscany Ironman

[Golladan]

Here is how things went for me in my current ironman Tuscany game. Obviously mileage will vary.

Day one declared war on Urbino taking the stab hit to avoid Aragon's shenanigans. Royal Marriaged Austria and improved relations to try to ally them so I can take on Venice when the time is right (plus they're emperor). I grab a Better Relations over time Advisor.
Started fabricating claim on Siena. Vassalized Urbino and declared on Siena. Also allied with Savoy as they can probably help when I go for Milan. While at war with Siena the pope decides to take on my vassal all by himself so I decide to teach him a lesson. Around this time Aragon gets a PU over Austria so I break my RM with Austria and start to kiss up with Castile in case they end up inheriting Aragon, Naples, and Austria.
During the Siena war the Pope declares on Urbino by himself. So I teach the Pope a lesson by taking Rome and forcing him to release Avignon. I vassalize Siena. Soon after I declare on the Pope and vassalize him.
As Curia controller I excommunicate Naples and call a crusade against Morocco. Eventually Aragon loses his PUs (why can't Aragon keep positive prestige even if they keep winning wars?), and Castille gets the Iberian Wedding... and refuses it (they had a Regency. Maybe that has something to do with it).
During a period of peace I annex the Pope, Urbino, and Siena. During this time Venice takes a province from Milan and takes Ferrara. I use a vassalize Modena mission and go to war with them and their ally Milan. Vassalize both.
Castile then calls me into a war over Grenada against Morocco, and the Ottomans. OP crusade bonuses kick in. I use this as my chance to take Ferrara from Venice and declare war on them. Savoy and Naples join on his side. Austria joins on mine. (note: Up to this point all my wars were just me and my vassals. My allies would not join any of them). I take a province from a weak Naples (if i remember correctly they were in a war against Aragon who had used the excommunicate CB). Peace out Savoy who was pretty weak thanks to wars. Fight back some Ottomans that are trying to mess around with me in Venice. Force Venice to return the province they took to Milan, as well as the Milanese province they start with. And annex Ferrara. Then I used a mission to Vassalize Mantua who was at war with Venice, causing me to break truce when I vassalized them (put me at -3 stability. Then I got Comet Sighted. Lol). But I peace out of that war quickly.

So currently I have Modena, Mantua, and Milan as vassals. Have used the Excommunicate CB to take another province from Naples. Naples and Venice have not been able to recover. They are constantly suffering wars after wars (even Venice used the Excommunicate CB against Naples. And Venice is under attack by a Hungarian-French alliance).

I'll probably just annex Milan, form Italy, and finish my playthrough since I just wanted the achievement.

Ideas I took Innotivative and Diplomatic. Innovative I rushed the first 3 ideas to get the -5% tech cost and unlock my first National idea (another -5% tech cost and idea cost). Then focused back on tech. Only putting points in ideas if I'm ahead of time, which is almost all the time. For military tech i've had to spend points even when ahead of time whenever I reached the 999 cap.


I love Tuscany. They have soooo many beneficial events.

 

[S0ny B1ack]

I ended up getting into another disastrous war & deleted the save game. Only my second ironman, and the first was the Ottomans. Rather than being too conservative, I think I'm not being careful enough. It was a decent start though, and next time I'll be a bit more careful.

Try to continue the game even if you loose a war Even if you loose some territory - it is just so sweet when you mange to get it back ater a hundred years (also where would be the fun if you win everything, always)

 

[penco]

Just FYI Lombardia is probably the best province for your capital. Highest base tax of all provinces in the Venice node. Venice has the advantage of being on an island, but Lombardia is basically in the Alps and is easy to defend as well. Great way to set a trap for your enemies.

 

[Opus]

I'll currently also on a Tuscany PT, did the basic things, didn't have a problem with Venice (took some provinces in a series of wars, then Vassalized them. Same with Milan). At 1621 (Current game year) I have all of the Italian states except Rome, plus A couple of Austrian provinces. West Balkans is under my firm controll as either Vassals or direct control.

Started to colonize to round the cape and are currently to launch wars for controll over the Gulf of Aden-node.

I think I've took it slow, could probably have conquerd some more, but I've lost only one war in almost 200 years (against the only coalition that ever formed against me, Austria, France, Lithauna and Russia at the same time. Got away giving minor concessions). I have lvl 5-6 buildings in almost every province and only had one comet in the whole time. Been at +3 stab for at least 80 of those 180 years, without spending almost any MPs on stab.


Figured that Castille is a great ally early on, but sucks once they start colonizing cuz of bad AI. They now loose every war they engage in, even to a tiny Aragon.

 

[El Jojo]

Austria can be dismenbered by taking Gorz and vassalreleasing Styria then force returning cores to Styria. It's a must for every northern italian state, it reduces Austria to four provinces and no shared borders, Styria's provinces are also really rich so after diploannexion you end up with great territory.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Try to continue the game even if you loose a war Even if you loose some territory - it is just so sweet when you mange to get it back ater a hundred years (also where would be the fun if you win everything, always)

I did that after the first lost war, but two was too many for me.

Stated anew with a slightly more (initially) brute force approach. I have my 5 provinces in 1454 (added Siena, Ancona and Romagna), no vassals though. And managed it without being hated for the most part. Austria is an ally as well. We'll see how this one goes. Probably will fabricate a claim on Venice next. Still not sure what I need to do to get the subjugation missions.

 

[jii]

Austria can be dismenbered by taking Gorz and vassalreleasing Styria then force returning cores to Styria. It's a must for every northern italian state, it reduces Austria to four provinces and no shared borders, Styria's provinces are also really rich so after diploannexion you end up with great territory.

When I did that, Styria lost all its cores for some reason. I think the safest bet is to release Tyrol and then Styria, which lets you forcibly vassalize Styria if you take one of its provinces beforehand.

 

[trojan1234]

What are the precise requirements for subjugation missions?

Have relation +50 and not allied.

Here is how things went for me in my current ironman Tuscany game. Obviously mileage will vary.

Day one declared war on Urbino taking the stab hit to avoid Aragon's shenanigans.

You can set Urbino as rival before unpause and take the mission remove it from the map. Doing it will provide an instant claim cb on them. It will save you adm points which you can core it for quicker utilizing the province.

 

[Xara]

Austria can be dismenbered by taking Gorz and vassalreleasing Styria then force returning cores to Styria. It's a must for every northern italian state, it reduces Austria to four provinces and no shared borders, Styria's provinces are also really rich so after diploannexion you end up with great territory.

Definitely this, good way to advance north.

When I did that, Styria lost all its cores for some reason. I think the safest bet is to release Tyrol and then Styria, which lets you forcibly vassalize Styria if you take one of its provinces beforehand.

You need to do it before 1544 and attack Austria while Styria is your vassal before 1544 again. You can 'liberate' Styria entirely if you do it before 1644 (get 100% warscore vs. Austria and tell them to free Styria), but if you plan to catch one province and release (the much better option), they will be reduced to a 1544 expiration date on the unreleased provinces. The moment you, in control of them, attack Austria pre-1544, however, the timer will extend by 100 years again, and will be reset by any subsequent wars vs. Austria.

 

[Xara]

Still not sure what I need to do to get the subjugation missions.

-They are not a horde or Japanese gov't (and neither are you)
-Same religious group (Christian, Muslim, etc.; they can be heretics, not heathens)
-They are not in regency
-They are not already someone's vassal or lesser partner
-You have 5 or more provinces, they have 3 or fewer
-They are not at war with you
-They are not allied to you
-They have opinion of you at least +50

MORE LIKELY TO RECEIVE IF : You share primary culture, you share religion, they have a base tax capital of +5 or higher, they have only one province

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Thanks. I got it the mission on Mantua literally the instant I satisfied the conditions (by taking an adjacent province, Verona, after already fulfilling everything else).

So, assuming the war goes as planned, I should be up to 6 provinces plus a one province vassal by 1461 or 1462. Savoy and Milan went to war to defend Mantua, but Austria answered my CTA so I should be okay.

Edit - in 3 years I should be able to get my relations high enough with Ferrara, which ate Modena, to get the mission on them as well. Need to wait for AE to dissipate. If I get that and Bresica from Venice, I'll have a nice little Republic of 10 provinces (7 owned and 3 vassalized) by around 1467 or so - and, with Bresica in the fold, in a position hopefully to get a subjugate mission against Milan next. Definitely going better this time around.

Edit - well, didn't get the mission. I did take Bresica (though now I don't have +50 relations with Ferrara). Still in pretty good shape I think for 1466.

 

[Xara]

Thanks. I got it the mission on Mantua literally the instant I satisfied the conditions (by taking an adjacent province, Verona, after already fulfilling everything else).

So, assuming the war goes as planned, I should be up to 6 provinces plus a one province vassal by 1461 or 1462. Savoy and Milan went to war to defend Mantua, but Austria answered my CTA so I should be okay.

Did Savoy take control of the war? Because you could vassalize Savoy for no AE if they did.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Did Savoy take control of the war? Because you could vassalize Savoy for no AE if they did.

No, but they are way too big to vassalize in any event - even at start I think, bu they added two swiss provinces. I think their vassaliztion score was 160+. Milan's was 104 or thereabouts.

Anyway, now the dilemma is wait for missions against Milan and Ferrara (in both cases I would need to gift them or wait quite a while, in in Ferrar's case there would still be a wait until I could get relations over 50), or just keep going after Venice. But in any event I am in a vastly better position than last time.

 

[Xara]

No, but they are way too big to vassalize in any event - even at start I think

They're not too big to vassalize at the start, because subjugation gives a 50% discount. It's part of my opening moves for Milan. They only cost something like 72% warscore. Taking two from the Swiss could push that up too high, yea.

160%? 104% for Milan? Are you sure you used the subjugation CB?

 

[unmerged(177849)]

No, I couldn't, as they were not the war leaders - but I see now, if they had been, then I could have used it.

Now all the more reason to hope for getting that CB on Milan - they are neighbors now. But I guess as a 3 province country, I'll need some luck getting the mission.

 

[Xara]

Oh right, misread/skipped the "no they didn't take control" part

 

[unmerged(804580)]

Take Rome and join the Reformation. With all the Tuscan tradition, twin universities and protestant bonuses you'll be swimming in monarch points even as a republic. Having Rome as a Protestant nation gives you +1 missionary and +1 prestige, so converting Italy isn't that hard either.

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

You mean Collect there. Yeah, you can do that. But usually, it's hard to get 100% in any American trade node as an Italian state. Unless you wage constant war with Spain and/or Portugal and/or GB. When you get the range, those nodes are all like 50% taken. Brazil, witch is the only node feeding to an African node is surley almost 100% taken by Portugal and/or Castille.

You could go early for a south Marocc province and use as a base for colonisation of the Americas.

Doable, ofc, but there are easier/more plauseble ways for Tuscany or Milan to go. Like driving trade from the East. More money too, if done right.

It's actually quite easy to get fleet basing rights from Portugal, colonize Cape Verde and start coring it before they get a colonist to stop you from getting fbr's. I've done that as Norway, and they don't have anywhere near the ridiculous monarch-point generation Tuscany has.

Whether it's worthwhile is another question though

 

[unmerged(177849)]

I don’t want to turn this into a bad AAR, but I am quite happy about how this game is going and wanted to share. With one embarrassing mistake, though.

My next move after the above was to go to war against Venice again. They were allied with Savoy and Genoa, but France and Austria answered my CTA, so I won easily. Genoa was forced to release Corsica, which I promptly diplo vassalized. Then I peaced Venice, taking Treviso and forcing them to release Croatia (Dalmatia), which I also diplo vassalized. Almost immediately the subjugate Milan mission fired, so I declared war. Their ally Hungary joined, but so did my allies France and Austria. The upshot, after a long war, was not only the vassalization of Milan (sadly only two provinces, Genoa had previously taken Parma. In retrospect I should have forced its return to Milan), but three provinces “returned” to Croatia by Hungary. So, as of 1480, I have 8 provinces of my own, and 9 owned by 5 vassals. A nice start for Tuscany. And so much more satisfying ironman.

Well … actually 8 provinces held by vassals. Here’s the embarrassing mistake, and the one truly annoying thing about ironman. I mis-clicked, returning Istria to Venice rather than to Croatia. Grr. I’ll get it in the next war against Venice I guess. Hoping for the subjugate Ferrara mission to op first though.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

So after another war with Venice that netted me Fruili, as well as Istria to my vassal Croatia, and Parma to Milan from Genoa, I had a quiet few years aside from annexing my vassal Mantua.

Then in 1489 the subjugation mission finally fired for Ferrara. They had strong allies, but I still had Austria and France. Switzerland ended up the war leader.

And I finally managed to take advantage of the mechanic described above. BOTH Switzerland (even though it had recovered its provinces from Savoy) AND Ferrara were vassalized. So, in 1492, I have 10 of my own provinces, and 17 held by vassals. One over the diplo limit, but I can live with that for now. And no AE. Those subjugation missions are awesome.

Milan next to be annexed. After that, may be able to get a subjugation mission on Genoa. Not sure how to dispose of Venice – vassalation would be ideal. Then Savoy.

Austria will be very tough, though, as they got the Burgundian inheritance & have made other gains.

Thanks for all of the great advice.