Turning Point 1989 [RELEASED]

[AdanALW]

On the alternate ways for USSR, I don't know whether it is historically plausible or not, but a "Cultural Revolution"-type of option which could continue on a unique thing (that worker's class rule), or return to the alternative options of the beginning (liberalization, army, brezhnevites, ...) does seems fun for future updates. I mean, it may sound rude but DH is a wargame, and "violent" outcomes are usually the best in game-play, along with an innovative RP leading to them. So if someone is willing to code them (= if the idea interest modders) it IMO could be implemented.

I just want to say thank you for voicing support. I am pleased someone else gets it.

AdanALW's ideas are actually quite intresting, but I think people just want to play the mod now and we can add the more intresting options later on to give more flexibility as USSR.

Thank you, and this is my thought as well. I never meant to seem as if I was trying to derail this project.

I'm actually new to Hearts of Iron. I was very excited to hear about the game East vs West, and disappointed when it was cancelled. After doing a bit of research I saw that Darkest hour seemed the best Cold War mod of the series. This particular mod interests me very much. So far I've been playing New World Order 2, which is also very good.

I've done triggers in games before (the original StarCraft) and took a few classes in C++, even would write programs for my graphing calculator. I think I could right this scenario myself at some point. I just got discouraged when my first attempts didn't work in the scripts at all, but apparently it was suggested that that might have been because I used a program other than Excel on the spreadsheets. The Computer is in need of repairs currently, but I hope to try this again in the New Year. I suspect I'll write a version for New World Order 2 (which would add new events in the succession of Stalin chain all the way up to the present and even beyond) and one for Turning Point (which I've already gone into). But I have to first learn if I can actually write successful scripts.

In fact, I'm actually conceiving of something to enhance the political simulation of the game. The grand strategy and war aspects are good, but I feel as if the game would be enhanced by more building aspects (like city improvements in the Civilization series) and sort of Role-playing-simulator elements akin to Crisis in the Kremlin or Hidden Agenda. However, I think city improvements is too far a reach for my abilities and time, but more political choices would at least make the game more dynamic in my view.

In any case, if someone likes it enough to beat me to it, please go ahead.

 

[JRHINDO]

AdanALW you took some heat over 'maoist views' on the basis that you considered the Cultural Revolution a good thing, and good enough for believing that a russian similar revolution would be a viable way to maintain or even strengthen soviet russia. Mao launched it arguably to regain power, and for his social experimentation, in a period where he had the space, following and time to do this. No one wanted 60s style leftist social experimentation and no one wanted a return of a strongly, centralized, personalized communist state. The population wanted consumer goods and way more free speech,and the western democracies were the closest model there was.

That some people of the era wanted it, promoted and worked for this, maybe sure they may have been. But only had they had strong enough backing for a coup, would such a revolution have a remote chance to happen. And there wasnt time and power for this to happen, if the mod starts in 1989.


Also political comment on past political personalities are always controversial, especially in ahistory, since mostly subjective.

 

[AdanALW]

AdanALW you took some heat over 'maoist views' on the basis that you considered the Cultural Revolution a good thing, and good enough for believing that a russian similar revolution would be a viable way to maintain or even strengthen soviet russia.

I guess I'm still having to correct and defend what I actually said. I said I wanted to play a scenario where the Soviets had a sort of Cultural Revolution. On whether or not the actual Chinese Cultural Revolution was good or bad, my answer was it had both good and bad things about it.

Mao launched it arguably to regain power, and for his social experimentation, in a period where he had the space, following and time to do this. No one wanted 60s style leftist social experimentation and no one wanted a return of a strongly, centralized, personalized communist state. The population wanted consumer goods and way more free speech,and the western democracies were the closest model there was.

I think that that view is completely wrong, and most definitely in the way you stated it as the absolute universal "no one". Plenty of Chinese supported the Cultural Revolution, particularly a good portion of the youth. The fact that they took off with the idea and went even further than Mao himself had envisioned.

As far as Mao's motivation, realistically only Mao can truly know. I maintain, like Harvard professor Roderick MacFarquhar (who is not a Communist, I now feel I must say, but is considered in the West arguably the best scholar in the field of the Cultural Revolution), that the Cultural Revolution was not simply to remove Mao's political rivals, because Mao continued the Cultural Revolution even after they were eliminated in 19666. So both he and I believe it was in fact ideological in its conception and motivation.

I've provided a link below of his lecture on it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5tn3LvgRVY

He makes the point that isn't just about a power struggle 12 minutes in.

That some people of the era wanted it, promoted and worked for this, maybe sure they may have been. But only had they had strong enough backing for a coup, would such a revolution have a remote chance to happen. And there wasnt time and power for this to happen, if the mod starts in 1989.

This is something on Soviet Maoism:
https://afoniya.wordpress.com/2013/...t-union-an-article-by-alexei-volynets-part-1/

and part two:
https://afoniya.wordpress.com/2013/...union-an-article-by-alexei-volynets-part-two/

The Cultural Revolution as idea also had an impact outside China, in the West. I'm think of May 1968 in Paris, and I'm thinking of various radical organization in the US from minority groups like the Black Panthers and Young Lords. So the ideas behind it were actually pretty popular, particularly by groups who didn't seem to think that happiness was in consumer goods.

Also political comment on past political personalities are always controversial, especially in ahistory, since mostly subjective.

There's the saying "You are entitled to you own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts." Facts are objective, history is a narrative which interprets, connects, give significance to facts. There for that history can have subjectivity. That's why and argument, a case needs to be made, when presenting facts with interpretation. In that manner, just as there are good arguments with good logic and supporting evidence versus bad arguments, I say the same about history. History is inherently subjective as a narrative, but there is good history and bad history which we evaluate using logic and empiricism.

In any case, I have to resist the urge to go off pure historical debate, as I do enjoy it quite a bit, but I fear it would veer too far off the focus of the game and mod itself. So, I don't know if another thread should be started elsewhere or if PMs are the way to do this, but I'm gonna try and hold back the urge to comment and debate on this too much.

 

[RealityGuy]

This thread is less and less about the MOD and more and more about people showing of their knowledge and thoughts.

 

[tyman323]

This thread is less and less about the MOD and more and more about people showing of their knowledge and thoughts.

Agreed, can't we all just get along until hansnery saves us all!

 

[Pasha]

This thread is less and less about the MOD and more and more about people showing of their knowledge and thoughts.

 

[Mackus]

I guess I'm still having to correct and defend what I actually said. I said I wanted to play a scenario where the Soviets had a sort of Cultural Revolution. On whether or not the actual Chinese Cultural Revolution was good or bad, my answer was it had both good and bad things about it.

Thats the problem - any sane person would deny Chinese cultural revolution being both good and bad. Any "good" outcomes drown in millions of dead. hint: millions of dead is bad outcome.
People are angry at you not because they misunderstood you. They are angry because they understood you.

The problem with western-styled democracies and their consumerist society is that thus far in history that has only been possible through various forms of imperialism.

Yeah, those sick capitalist-imperialist murderers like Swiss, Canadians, and Swedes surely invaded a lot of innocent countries to colonise and exploit. Thats why they are so rich!
And North Korea, and other countries that don't let in foreign investment are doing so well, since no foreign capitalists are exploiting it: "You are free! You are not being exploited! You are not like those enslaved Chinese and South Koreans, who must toil in factories owned by foreign capitalist-imperialist exploiters! Rejoice!"

Imperialism is responsible for the creation of Capitalism and its maintenance led to a consumerist society.

Wrong. Capitalism killed the imperialism. Where goods won't cross borders armies will. And conversely, where goods cross borders armies won't. Do you think China or US would nuke the other, even if they had perfect anti-missile defense? Of course not. They would lose trade partner - complete victory would have destroyed their economies even if enemy wouldn't land single bomb at them. At that goes both ways.


You are a fanatic, AdanALW. You can't change your mind and you won't change the subject.


I've been trying the "Crisis in the Kremlin" game. Very interesting. Perhaps one day a remake could be made
Two things of note. Of the three factions that appear in game:
Hardliners under Yegor Ligachev, Reformers under Mikhail Gorbachev, and Nationalists under Boris Yeltsin.
Nationalists do not seem to be represented right now (at least initially after death of Czernienko), if the screenshot is of any indication. While they probably will appear later in game, it would be interesting if they managed to wriggle into position of power early on, before its too late for them to stop everything from crashing down.
Other things is, the titular "crisises" are very event-like mrchanic, and most could be adapted (if developers want some inspiration), at least as flavour events. Especially the "Momma and papa sent you letter" chain cracked me

 

[RealityGuy]

View attachment 119396

Exactly, and look at a post below yours...

 

[JRHINDO]

xxx

Nice wall of text, but the subject of my post was USSR in 1989...

 

[tommo8993]

we do have a history forum on here:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?44-History-Forum

 

[Pasha]

 

[hansnery]

I've been trying the "Crisis in the Kremlin" game. Very interesting. Perhaps one day a remake could be made
Two things of note. Of the three factions that appear in game:
Hardliners under Yegor Ligachev, Reformers under Mikhail Gorbachev, and Nationalists under Boris Yeltsin.
Nationalists do not seem to be represented right now (at least initially after death of Czernienko), if the screenshot is of any indication. While they probably will appear later in game, it would be interesting if they managed to wriggle into position of power early on, before its too late for them to stop everything from crashing down.
Other things is, the titular "crisises" are very event-like mrchanic, and most could be adapted (if developers want some inspiration), at least as flavour events. Especially the "Momma and papa sent you letter" chain cracked me

It's interesting that you brought up Crisis in the Kremlin and a coincidence. I spent last night running test games and playing Crisis in the Kremlin for the first time. I wish I had known this game back in the 1990s in my childhood (I would only begin to like history, geography and paradox's games at the age of 13, when I met HoI2), because it is a very interesting game. Although I had seen people commenting about this game before, I had no idea how it was, but I already had ideas about keeping the player busy by balancing policies between the hardline and liberal factions, although only the hardliners are represented so far, it wouldn't be hard to implement other factions. Surely, a lot of inspiration can be drawn from this DOS game.

 

[tyman323]

It's interesting that you brought up Crisis in the Kremlin and a coincidence. I spent last night running test games and playing Crisis in the Kremlin for the first time. I wish I had known this game back in the 1990s in my childhood (I would only begin to like history, geography and paradox's games at the age of 13, when I met HoI2), because it is a very interesting game. Although I had seen people commenting about this game before, I had no idea how it was, but I already had ideas about keeping the player busy by balancing policies between the hardline and liberal factions, although only the hardliners are represented so far, it wouldn't be hard to implement other factions. Surely, a lot of inspiration can be drawn from this DOS game.

So hans, when can we expect it, hopefully soon, I've got finals to blow off ya know.

 

[Insert-Name]

This thread is less and less about the MOD and more and more about people showing of their knowledge and thoughts.

Wow this was EXACTLY what I was trying to say

Do I look like such a bad guy now? This is what happens when internet zealots invade a thread....

 

[AdanALW]

Thats the problem - any sane person would deny Chinese cultural revolution being both good and bad. Any "good" outcomes drown in millions of dead. hint: millions of dead is bad outcome.
People are angry at you not because they misunderstood you. They are angry because they understood you.


Yeah, those sick capitalist-imperialist murderers like Swiss, Canadians, and Swedes surely invaded a lot of innocent countries to colonise and exploit. Thats why they are so rich!
And North Korea, and other countries that don't let in foreign investment are doing so well, since no foreign capitalists are exploiting it: "You are free! You are not being exploited! You are not like those enslaved Chinese and South Koreans, who must toil in factories owned by foreign capitalist-imperialist exploiters! Rejoice!"


Wrong. Capitalism killed the imperialism. Where goods won't cross borders armies will. And conversely, where goods cross borders armies won't. Do you think China or US would nuke the other, even if they had perfect anti-missile defense? Of course not. They would lose trade partner - complete victory would have destroyed their economies even if enemy wouldn't land single bomb at them. At that goes both ways.


You are a fanatic, AdanALW. You can't change your mind and you won't change the subject.


I've been trying the "Crisis in the Kremlin" game. Very interesting. Perhaps one day a remake could be made
Two things of note. Of the three factions that appear in game:
Hardliners under Yegor Ligachev, Reformers under Mikhail Gorbachev, and Nationalists under Boris Yeltsin.
Nationalists do not seem to be represented right now (at least initially after death of Czernienko), if the screenshot is of any indication. While they probably will appear later in game, it would be interesting if they managed to wriggle into position of power early on, before its too late for them to stop everything from crashing down.
Other things is, the titular "crisises" are very event-like mrchanic, and most could be adapted (if developers want some inspiration), at least as flavour events. Especially the "Momma and papa sent you letter" chain cracked me

Millions die in history. I think that is of course a bad thing. The point I was trying to make is that for that is for some that the death toll isn't the only factor. Some people ask what do people die for? For what reason. Again, thats why I mentioned the Civil War example, or put another way "If you had to see close to a million die to end slavery, would you do it?" I say it not because I think this, but because I think those who pursued this likely did. In my view because the Cultural Revolution failed, I can not see how those who died are in anyway justified. But even a student of mine from China said the following, "Its not that the intention of the Cultural Revolution was good and the result bad, but more the opposite. The intention was wrong but it helped push China into modernization." I wouldn't say it that way, but there are those who do. I think most if hope and believe there was a better way to accomplish this. Still some good things can still come out of bad.

Millions died because of Capitalism, lost their land or were enslaved. Yet people says good things came from Capitalism. Is this insane?

Canadians killed Natives. Swedes had an empire, remember the Thirty Years War, and of course they were involved in the slave trade, as well as finacing and selling arms. Switzerland finances lots of death too in the same ways.

If North Korea made Nikes, they'd be allies, sure. But two World Wars show us that trade doesn't stop wars. As far as another nation you might want to look at is Cuba, who has the lowest infant mortality in Latin America and lower than the USA. It also has statistical full adult literacy. If that is for the third world a failure, thats a good failure in my view.

 

[tyman323]

Wall.txt

Please just go here:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?44-History-Forum

 

[AdanALW]

we do have a history forum on here:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?44-History-Forum

Thanks. I did feel myself getting a bit carried away at the end here. I never intended the first comment to go off into a heated discussion so far from this thead. I just feel defensive when I see people misrepresention my views and statement.

In the future, any other discussion or comments, I will dirrect to a new thread. My sincere apppologies to those who were unhappy with the posts. It was not exactly what I wanted either.

 

[Pasha]

Wall

For the love of Mao, Stalin, Nixon, Reagan, Bush, O'Henry, Oprah, Dr. Phil, Steve Harvey, and Hillary...Please go away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I Can't take it anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Xie]

Can we just anticipate the mod be released ASAP?

 

[AdanALW]

Wow this was EXACTLY what I was trying to say

Do I look like such a bad guy now? This is what happens when internet zealots invade a thread....

But I thought that was precisely what you wanted me to do, at least that's what you said. So we can be bad guys together then, right?
Lol
Its alright. You got me worked up enough to painstakingly felt compelled to completely and fully explain every angle of my position. But I will let it go.

In any case, I've never been actually hurt by anything youve thrown my way.

Regardles of what happened before, I'm willing to extend an olive branch and a clean slate with you if you are interested. We dont have to pretend we are best buds, but I don't see the point in continuing forms of hostility.

Just because we enjoy war games doesn't mean we can't be peacemakers.