Turning Point 1989 [RELEASED]

[hansnery]

Just stepping into the conversation: If research is to be government-driven in this mod as in vanilla, do you really think that economic developments belong to the tech tree? You could use decisions/events trees instead and clear room for equipment/doctrines techs.
Imho the entire concept of "research" has to be adapted to the modern era for a mod like this.

In the mod, the sliders are very important to simulate economic developments with events triggered depending on your orientation (free market/central planning). The idea behind the economic techs was to give countries the option to "research" the economic model they prefer, but the techs wouldn't give effects right away but would allow for further events/decisions. Surely this could be made entirely of decisions and events, but I like the sense of progression that researching gives (with that loading green bar and a nice tree such as Limith's). As for the researchs being government-driven I don't have much of a choice. But thanks for the input!

 

[Limith]

Well, Limith, I applaud your audacity, sir. You made a more in-depth graph than I could with only my layman's knowledge (my background is only basic, for 'classical', or Marxian economics) and it's prettier to boot!

The only issue I'd see is how this is SO BIG it's gonna need its own tab lol! I also kinda would have liked to see more red options because it just seems fewer of them. Moreover, the fact neoliberalism and the Command Economy both lead to 'network economics' haha... oh wow. I can see the argument being made for it even though one would be massively different than the other.

Anyways good work, let's see what Hansnery has to say. Or it may be a combination of my uber-simple and your very-specific.

EDIT: I'd also argue your understanding of the Soviet economy et al suffers from the Whiggish Western narrative and not from several new pieces that have stated the problem was less with planning as a whole than with corruption and over-emphasis on capital reinvestment. For example, the Command economy of the Soviet Union was very, very different from, say, the Fascist Italian or Nazi German economy. The former was less efficient than the Italian economy of WWI and the latter was made up of heavy profiteering. Conversely, even under Stalin there was still a high level of production with a relatively low amount of wasteage. Moreover even with all the corruption even heads of state factories in the nomenklatura didn't live like kings unlike industrialists such as Krupp, even if they did have western consumer items and caviar. Anyways that's just a point I made about it as a whole, it'll be Hansnery's call of what to put in.

Command economy is supposed to represent the Chinese economy today, not the Soviets, it's a the last tech in the tree. Notice the Soviet "State Ownership" branch ends up in "Privitized SOE" while the (Chinese) "Local Ownership" ends up in "Command Economy". If you have a better name for it, feel free to enlighten. That being said, it's a very good description of the Chinese Economy.

Too much capital re-investment is still a fault of the planners non-theless, it's not wrong to say that.

I do need some work in the Monetary/Fiscal section to describe the Soviets since I never learned about what their ideas on that were.

Edit: some some modifications coming soon is a change to Public Quota/Rent to represent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Kosygin#Economic_policy as well since the reform is very much like the Public Rent policy in China. Therefore, the Kosygin reforms would see the USSR go to Light Industry Focus, Public Rent (the new version with a different name), and Shareholding SOE.

 

[hansnery]

Command economy is supposed to represent the Chinese economy today, not the Soviets, it's a the last tech in the tree. Notice the Soviet "State Ownership" branch ends up in "Privitized SOE" while the (Chinese) "Local Ownership" ends up in "Command Economy". If you have a better name for it, feel free to enlighten. That being said, it's a very good description of the Chinese Economy.

Too much capital re-investment is still a fault of the planners non-theless, it's not wrong to say that.

I do need some work in the Monetary/Fiscal section to describe the Soviets since I never learned about what their ideas on that were.

Edit: some some modifications coming soon is a change to Public Quota/Rent to represent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Kosygin#Economic_policy as well since the reform is very much like the Public Rent policy in China. Therefore, the Kosygin reforms would see the USSR go to Light Industry Focus, Public Rent (the new version with a different name), and Shareholding SOE.

What program did you use to make that infographic?

 

[Limith]

What program did you use to make that infographic?

yEd. you can download the graph by the way, there's a link in my original post. The downloaded graph has more details for each of the "techs" in the infographic which describes what they are. Given that you can have descriptions in techs, you can even copy+paste my descriptions into your tech file.

 

[Insert-Name]

Well except the Privatized SOE was a result of the political collapse of the entire system. So it's silly to have a USSR that has privately-owned state enterprises when there was a huge reaction against even letting in Pizza Hut (and which in turn precipitated the demise of the country). As I said, there should be an option like Socialist Technocracy to describe a planned economy based on tech. And you should realize it actually was experimented with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn

Now imagine that with powerful microchip computers and it gives you the model for a planned economy in the 21st century. Hence Socialist Technocracy. Just because it hasn't been implemented doesn't mean its impossible.

As for the Chinese being a command economy... c'mon. It's a Stalinist state in regards to its political organization but it's a fundamentally capitalist mode of production (ie privately owned enterprise, private investment, yes mass corruption due to the political thing but production is fundamentally based on the profit motive to sell commodities rather than arbitrary government orders).

And as for re-investment being a failure of the planners, sure, but it wasn't due to corruption as the tool-tip insinuated. Anyways that's not relevant to what I'm trying to say which is hard-line economics should have a possibility being reflected by a changing world but which don't fundamentally abandon collective state ownership.

 

[Limith]

Well except the Privatized SOE was a result of the political collapse of the entire system. So it's silly to have a USSR that has privately-owned state enterprises when there was a huge reaction against even letting in Pizza Hut (and which in turn precipitated the demise of the country). As I said, there should be an option like Socialist Technocracy to describe a planned economy based on tech. And you should realize it actually was experimented with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn

Now imagine that with powerful microchip computers and it gives you the model for a planned economy in the 21st century. Hence Socialist Technocracy. Just because it hasn't been implemented doesn't mean its impossible.

As for the Chinese being a command economy... c'mon. It's a Stalinist state in regards to its political organization but it's a fundamentally capitalist mode of production (ie privately owned enterprise, private investment, yes mass corruption due to the political thing but production is fundamentally based on the profit motive to sell commodities rather than arbitrary government orders).

And as for re-investment being a failure of the planners, sure, but it wasn't due to corruption as the tool-tip insinuated. Anyways that's not relevant to what I'm trying to say which is hard-line economics should have a possibility being reflected by a changing world but which don't fundamentally abandon collective state ownership.

The relationship between the state and the 'private organizations' is not as clear cut as you might think. Profits go to individuals, but the state still has considerable stake, owning stocks for examples, or through other methods. I don't think the tooltip for re-investment mentioned corruption at all or insinuated it at all? I'm sorry if it gave that impression. What tech are you talking about, so I can fix it? (I'm not the best in communication sadly)
Socialist Technocracy is what China is (in a larger sense imo) attempting to create, but China currently has the system it has today which is not a technocracy.

 

[Insert-Name]

The relationship between the state and the 'private organizations' is not as clear cut as you might think. Profits go to individuals, but the state still has considerable stake, owning stocks for examples, or through other methods. I don't think the tooltip for re-investment mentioned corruption at all or insinuated it at all? I'm sorry if it gave that impression. What tech are you talking about, so I can fix it? (I'm not the best in communication sadly)
Socialist Technocracy is what China is (in a larger sense imo) attempting to create, but China currently has the system it has today which is not a technocracy.

A system where profit goes to individuals at all and requires the production of commodities for the purposes of profit to the individual is not a socialist system. One of the biggest reasons for this is political, but on the other hand the entire purpose of the socialist mode of production is to produce goods for need and for the state rather than for just desire, ie more factories, fewer GI Joes (though they still do both).

Nor is the political system of China- though it is built on a Stalinist and authoritarian model it stopped being even a basic welfare state in the mid-1990's and now you can't even get basic medical help without huge amounts of bribery and waiting (contrast to the Soviet system where it's one of the places you don't have to wait as long, or a Keynesian system like Canada where you do wait but also get good quality care).

SO what I'm saying is your economic tech tree isn't really out of our timeline in terms of possibilities, in fact it rigidly follows our own and doesn't end where it ought to. My entire interest was in trying to point out the potential for 21st century centrally planned economies which your model does not incorporate.

 

[MrNazar]

 

[Deounce]

Man i cant wait to get my hands on this mod....

 

[OnFire]

http://i.imgur.com/HteCbVm.jpg

 

[unmerged(184151)]

What a beutifull mod ))
I want to help it
I cant make events but can help with Bulgarian storyline
Later i will write my thoughts

 

[unmerged(184151)]

In the military aspect -
In December 1984, Todor Zhivkov began a campaign of forceful assimilation of Bulgaria's Turkish minority, most notably forcing all Turks to take Bulgarian names. By 1989,
resistance to this policy led to riots and terrorists act - bombing of one train near Gara Bunovo, which resulted in multiple deaths.
It can lead to an rissing dissent and revolt risk in the provinces of Smolyan,Tamrash and Ruse.
In May 1989, Zhivkov suddenly granted permission of all Turks to leave the country, which led to over 300 000 emigrating to Turkey within three months.
So there was a real possibility of war between Turkey and Bulgaria in the summer of 1989. It can break as an act of preserving the rights of the turks minority by the turkish side, by an event.
Also by this time bulgarian army was well equiped and have a total strenght of 200 000 men. In case of war with Turkey, there was a plan to destroy simultaneously three big dam on Arda river - in game province of Smolyan which will resulted in destruction of infrastructure in Edirne, Enez and Alexandropuli /Soflu and Oradea/ - the greek side will protest becouse of it.
There was a second plan known as plan "Khan Tervel" which was developed in case of WW3. The bulgarians will receive a nuke from soviets and bomb Istanbul - cutting the bosphorus. In case of WW3 Bulgaria should get claims on turkish and greek part of Thrace.
As for political aspect -
Gorbachev want Jivkov out of power and there is several canditures.
Petar Mladenov - which may serve as gorbatchevist candidature.He was chosen by the bulgarian politburo,so it is a historical.
Andrei Lukanov - which is more liberal and marked orientated.This option can lead to free marked reforms,even some privatization.
General Dobri Dzhurov - which is more conservative than Jivkov but is loyal to Moscow.Also he can lead some kind of military hunta. This option can lead to democratic upraising Romanian style.
Jivkov can ramain in power too.If he remain in power it will lead to some kind of chinese-socialist economic reform.He may withdrow from Warsaw pact and become more West oriented...he even talk with bavarian prime-minister Franz Josef Strauss of the possibility of joining EU in perspective.However this option can lead to democratic upraising Romanian style too.
Other events may include -
In late 1985 Todor Jivkov was invited to Japan and sign economic cooperation treaty with Japan. Jivkov was fascinated with Japans development.
In 1985-1986-1987 Bulgaria buy MiG 29 and MiG 25 airplanes and begin army modernization program.Bulgaria had Scud and SS-23 missiles.
Sending the second bulgarian cosmonaut in space - Aleksandr Aleksandrov - in June 7, 1988
In 1986 the Bulgaria and Greece signed a declaration of good-neighborliness - something like non-aggression pact - based on mutual enmity toward Turkey and toward Yugoslavia. In the begining of 1989 Bulgaria signed a ten-year bilateral economic agreement with Greece.
In January 1989 the Party issued Decree Number 56 - which introduced chinise style capitalism.
Between 1985-1989 Bulgaria has very well developed microcomputers - Pravetz and supply 70% of all electronics in the Eastern Bloc.
In 8 August 1988 Bulgaria start diplomatic relationship with European Economic Community.
At Seul 1988 Summer Olympics, Bulgaria won 10 gold medal and total of 35 medals mainly in athletics and wrestling.
On 8 marth 1988 there was the begining of democracy movement, becouse of the polution of Ruse from romanian heavy industries.- little dissent.
On 10 november 1989 Todor Jivkov resign. And the story of Bulgarian People's Republic end

 

[MrNazar]

Houston, we have a problem. For some years I don't know which pictures of ships to use for icons, maybe someone have any suggestions?

	CV - Carriers	CVN - Nuclear Carriers
1945	Essex class	?
1965	Forrestal class	Enterprise class (first ship in class)
1975	Kitty Hawk class	Nimitz class
1980	?	Theodore Roosevelt sub-class
1985	Kuznetsov class	?
1990	?	?
1995	?	Charles de Gaulle (R91)
2000	?	Ronald Reagan sub-class
2005	Queen Elizabeth class	Gerald R. Ford class

 

[hansnery]

Very good . Although I've seen AP already what does exactly AP and LHA mean?

In the military aspect -
In December 1984, Todor Zhivkov began a campaign of forceful assimilation of Bulgaria's Turkish minority, most notably forcing all Turks to take Bulgarian names. By 1989,
resistance to this policy led to riots and terrorists act - bombing of one train near Gara Bunovo, which resulted in multiple deaths.
It can lead to an rissing dissent and revolt risk in the provinces of Smolyan,Tamrash and Ruse.
In May 1989, Zhivkov suddenly granted permission of all Turks to leave the country, which led to over 300 000 emigrating to Turkey within three months.
So there was a real possibility of war between Turkey and Bulgaria in the summer of 1989. It can break as an act of preserving the rights of the turks minority by the turkish side, by an event.
Also by this time bulgarian army was well equiped and have a total strenght of 200 000 men. In case of war with Turkey, there was a plan to destroy simultaneously three big dam on Arda river - in game province of Smolyan which will resulted in destruction of infrastructure in Edirne, Enez and Alexandropuli /Soflu and Oradea/ - the greek side will protest becouse of it.
There was a second plan known as plan "Khan Tervel" which was developed in case of WW3. The bulgarians will receive a nuke from soviets and bomb Istanbul - cutting the bosphorus. In case of WW3 Bulgaria should get claims on turkish and greek part of Thrace.
As for political aspect -
Gorbachev want Jivkov out of power and there is several canditures.
Petar Mladenov - which may serve as gorbatchevist candidature.He was chosen by the bulgarian politburo,so it is a historical.
Andrei Lukanov - which is more liberal and marked orientated.This option can lead to free marked reforms,even some privatization.
General Dobri Dzhurov - which is more conservative than Jivkov but is loyal to Moscow.Also he can lead some kind of military hunta. This option can lead to democratic upraising Romanian style.
Jivkov can ramain in power too.If he remain in power it will lead to some kind of chinese-socialist economic reform.He may withdrow from Warsaw pact and become more West oriented...he even talk with bavarian prime-minister Franz Josef Strauss of the possibility of joining EU in perspective.However this option can lead to democratic upraising Romanian style too.
Other events may include -
In late 1985 Todor Jivkov was invited to Japan and sign economic cooperation treaty with Japan. Jivkov was fascinated with Japans development.
In 1985-1986-1987 Bulgaria buy MiG 29 and MiG 25 airplanes and begin army modernization program.Bulgaria had Scud and SS-23 missiles.
Sending the second bulgarian cosmonaut in space - Aleksandr Aleksandrov - in June 7, 1988
In 1986 the Bulgaria and Greece signed a declaration of good-neighborliness - something like non-aggression pact - based on mutual enmity toward Turkey and toward Yugoslavia. In the begining of 1989 Bulgaria signed a ten-year bilateral economic agreement with Greece.
In January 1989 the Party issued Decree Number 56 - which introduced chinise style capitalism.
Between 1985-1989 Bulgaria has very well developed microcomputers - Pravetz and supply 70% of all electronics in the Eastern Bloc.
In 8 August 1988 Bulgaria start diplomatic relationship with European Economic Community.
At Seul 1988 Summer Olympics, Bulgaria won 10 gold medal and total of 35 medals mainly in athletics and wrestling.
On 8 marth 1988 there was the begining of democracy movement, becouse of the polution of Ruse from romanian heavy industries.- little dissent.
On 10 november 1989 Todor Jivkov resign. And the story of Bulgarian People's Republic end

Thank you Bulgarion, that's a very useful post. Could you provide me Bulgaria's OOB?

Houston, we have a problem. For some years I don't know which pictures of ships to use for icons, maybe someone have any suggestions?

	CV - Carriers	CVN - Nuclear Carriers
1945	Essex class	?
1965	Forrestal class	Enterprise class (first ship in class)
1975	Kitty Hawk class	Nimitz class
1980	?	Theodore Roosevelt sub-class
1985	Kuznetsov class	?
1990	?	?
1995	?	Charles de Gaulle (R91)
2000	?	Ronald Reagan sub-class
2005	Queen Elizabeth class	Gerald R. Ford class

Actually Nuclear Carriers start at 1960 as prototypes and then go forward. But I did not go deep enough in research for this area. I think it's about time I send you an internal version?

 

[unmerged(184151)]

Could you provide me Bulgaria's OOB

Sure,I can...but i just have to ask ..what is OOB

 

[JRHINDO]

Very good . Although I've seen AP already what does exactly AP and LHA mean?

AP is the real class symbol for troopships (not TP), and LHA is Landing Helicopter Assault Ship or basically modern escort carriers but also for amphibious assault support.

 

[Pasha]

Just to add to what JRHINDO said, the letters AP apparently don't stand for anything and are strictly a hull or class designation. Here's a handy breakdown of them all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_classification_symbol

 

[Aquamenti]

About socialist economics here ... I feel you guys are giving Tito's self-management policy too little credit. In an orderly society, it has already proven itself – right up to Tito's death, leaving me to conclude that its eventual failure was due to lack of a competent successor. Indeed, the fact that the great dictator was succeeded by a 'presidential committee' is just ridiculous. I believe workers' self-management is the key to making left-wing authoritarianism work. While the Soviets dismissed Yugoslavia as a 'capitalist country', I would argue that since production was state-owned and employee-managed, it's the closest a society of that magnitude has ever come to socialism - it's not mixed. Unlike China. But the Chinese have little to do with socialism. They admit it themselves, implying that they have to make the most of capitalism before they can reach full communism.

 

[Insert-Name]

About socialist economics here ... I feel you guys are giving Tito's self-management policy too little credit. In an orderly society, it has already proven itself – right up to Tito's death, leaving me to conclude that its eventual failure was due to lack of a competent successor. Indeed, the fact that the great dictator was succeeded by a 'presidential committee' is just ridiculous. I believe workers' self-management is the key to making left-wing authoritarianism work. While the Soviets dismissed Yugoslavia as a 'capitalist country', I would argue that since production was state-owned and employee-managed, it's the closest a society of that magnitude has ever come to socialism - it's not mixed. Unlike China. But the Chinese have little to do with socialism. They admit it themselves, implying that they have to make the most of capitalism before they can reach full communism.

Yes I don't even fully disagree. Which was why I put them on my version of the tech-tree I just labelled them as being an "independent" and "mixed (planning empasis)" economy instead of one based fully around planning.

As for the Chinese, it's just a kleptocracy based on cheap industrial labour.

 

[Strikesback]

Houston, we have a problem. For some years I don't know which pictures of ships to use for icons, maybe someone have any suggestions?

	CV - Carriers	CVN - Nuclear Carriers
1945	Essex class	?
1965	Forrestal class	Enterprise class (first ship in class)
1975	Kitty Hawk class	Nimitz class
1980	?	Theodore Roosevelt sub-class
1985	Kuznetsov class	?
1990	?	?
1995	?	Charles de Gaulle (R91)
2000	?	Ronald Reagan sub-class
2005	Queen Elizabeth class	Gerald R. Ford class

As I see there should be 3 or even 4 branches of carriers like it is in MDS.
1st - Super heavy carriers (USA branch)
2nd - Aircraft-carrying heavy cruisers (USSR branch)
3rd - Light carriers

CV-1 Kitty Hawk, Queen Elisabeth (both are non-nuclear)
CV-2 Enterprise, Orel 1160 project (USSR)
CV-3 Nimitz, "Ulyanovsk" (USSR)
CV-4 Gerald Ford
CV-5 ???

AC-1 Project 1123 «Kondor» (Moskva, Leningrad), Giuseppe Garibaldi
AC-2 Project 1143.1-4 "Krechet" (Kiev, Minsk etc.)
AC-3 Project 1143.5-6 "Admiral Kuznetsov, Varyag"
AC-4 ???
AC-5 ???


CVL-1 Centaur-class, Viraat, Clemenceau
CVL-2 Invincible-class, Principe de Asturias
CVL-3 Chakri Naraebet
CVL-4 SAC-220, Cavour
CVL-5 Izumo-class ??