Turkish Culture Really Needs A Redo (Or: This thread again)

[Bibor]

I tend to look at it from the bright side: since Turkish is in the Levantine group, they are never tempted to culture-convert any of the provinces. This, in turn, provides more opportunities to dismantle the Ottoman empire, with Syria and Mamelukes being my most popular targets depending on where I start. This, combined with the fact that Ottomans *never* upgrade their forts, makes wars against them much easier than one would presume.

 

[Zak Preston]

Problem is that the vast majority of EU4 playerbase start their learning history from EU4 itself. Imagine a student that tells his teacher that Irish, Scottish and English cultures are in the same cultural group or that Turks and Egyptans are also the same.

 

[seriousgigi]

Ye I understand I was born in Tehran Iran my mom is from Tabriz she speaks Azari fluently, while my dad is Persian. She never thought me her language I guess one can say I been persianised... but when we went to turkey she didn't understand their Turkish there but she did point out it was like she was in Tabriz among her own people sort of way.

dude as a turk i don't even understand some dialects in turkish villages. there are some elder ladies in villages speaks very fast turkish and in weird way lol.

That would surely be interesting news to the Greeks who fought and died for their freedom in the 1820s, let alone the victims of constant persecution and several horrid massacres throughout the 19th and early 20th century. Si tacuisses...

those horrid massacres weren't one sided.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_during_Ottoman_contraction

The dude was after Rome. It was Selim in XVI. Century who turned his eyes to the east beyond Anatolia.

@DDRJake, pls add conquer rome (or salento) mission/event for ottomans

 

[chegitz guevara]

It would be helpful to remember that "culture" in EU doesn't mean what we think of as culture. It's not food and customs and language so much as it is social structures and government.

The Ottoman state was an amalgam of Persianized Turks and Romano-Greeks. They had a much easier time ruling over the area that had a Byzantine style government (Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia) than they did over nomadic Turks in Anatolia or Crimea.

 

[FleetingRain]

dude as a turk i don't even understand some dialects in turkish villages. there are some elder ladies in villages speaks very fast turkish and in weird way lol.


those horrid massacres weren't one sided.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_during_Ottoman_contraction


@DDRJake, pls add conquer rome (or salento) mission/event for ottomans

Tbh I want this event if only for the flavor text.

 

[Larva]

Don't know if relevant, but want to drop my 5 cents here, especially because many of us here mentioned Korean culture 'group' (played it a lot and it really shucks to be THAT restricted in your culture policies - especially when you cannot even culture convert them!).
I think empires should be a bit more flexible culture unions. Basically, if you culture group has less then X cultures in it you should be able to increase number of promoted cultures. This would also quite fit Ottomans overall - making Turkish a solo culture group would allow them to accept more cultures - thus forming bigger union, forged not by history and old bonds, but by new understanding of 'citizen' (a bit similar to how roman citizens were not actually 'romans' in culture sense).

 

[creativitypersonified]

Don't know if relevant, but want to drop my 5 cents here, especially because many of us here mentioned Korean culture 'group' (played it a lot and it really shucks to be THAT restricted in your culture policies - especially when you cannot even culture convert them!).
I think empires should be a bit more flexible culture unions. Basically, if you culture group has less then X cultures in it you should be able to increase number of promoted cultures. This would also quite fit Ottomans overall - making Turkish a solo culture group would allow them to accept more cultures - thus forming bigger union, forged not by history and old bonds, but by new understanding of 'citizen' (a bit similar to how roman citizens were not actually 'romans' in culture sense).

This is supposed to be represented through accepting cultures. But it's a pretty underwhelming aspect.

 

[Larva]

This isn't supposed to be represented through accepting cultures. But it's a pretty underwhelming aspect.

Maybe. I was also thinking about different level of acceptance - in similar fashion as culture group works without empire rank - by introducing halved penalties for cultures from one group. But that will probably require too big overhaul of culture system overall

 

[Lysistrata]

I'd maybe split Turkish into Turkish and Yoruk and put them in their own (Turkish) culture group. That would be enough, IMO.

 

[Grand Historian]

And it looks like we'll be going another update with this issue unresolved.

At this point, a mod might be necessary.

 

[Kalderus]

And it looks like we'll be going another update with this issue unresolved.

At this point, a mod might be necessary.

Instead, meanwhile Johan has expanded the "wonderful" Levantine group (with Khaleeji) all the way to Baluchistan. Perhaps in 1.24 it will become the Levantinomaghrebowestoindoaryan group, and stretch all the way from Morocco to Malwa?

 

[Kiyant]

Instead, meanwhile Johan has expanded the "wonderful" Levantine group (with Khaleeji) all the way to Baluchistan. Perhaps in 1.24 it will become the Levantinomaghrebowestoindoaryan group, and stretch all the way from Morocco to Malwa?

Well atleast they changed that Tao and Lomsia of Samtskhe isnt Armenian anymore.

 

[Grand Historian]

Instead, meanwhile Johan has expanded the "wonderful" Levantine group (with Khaleeji) all the way to Baluchistan. Perhaps in 1.24 it will become the Levantinomaghrebowestoindoaryan group, and stretch all the way from Morocco to Malwa?

You know, this also brings up the oddity of why the Muslim Tech Group is still called Muslim.

 

[Casko]

Instead, meanwhile Johan has expanded the "wonderful" Levantine group (with Khaleeji) all the way to Baluchistan. Perhaps in 1.24 it will become the Levantinomaghrebowestoindoaryan group, and stretch all the way from Morocco to Malwa?

don't forget to add in Iberian culture groups, I mean Granada is in the Muslim Tech Group!
And Hindustani, after all Delhi Sultanate is Sunni, Coincidence? I think not.
So it'd be LevantineomaghrebowestoindoaryanIberianhindustan.

You know, this also brings up the oddity of why the Muslim Tech Group is still called Muslim.

Indeed. would it not be better if it was named "Near-Eastern Tech group"? after all it'd be practically the same, but it'd be far more inclusive name, similarly how we already have Western, Eastern, Indian, Chinese, Anatolian et cetra.

 

[Grand Historian]

Indeed. would it not be better if it was named "Near-Eastern Tech group"? after all it'd be practically the same, but it'd be far more inclusive name, similarly how we already have Western, Eastern, Indian, Chinese, Anatolian et cetra.

I'd personally prefer Arabic with Persian/Iranian being separate (and including the Timurids in it), but Near East could also work.

 

[Casko]

I'd personally prefer Arabic with Persian/Iranian being separate (and including the Timurids in it), but Near East could also work.

My Reasoning for a Near-Eastern tech group is that it'd be more "general area" similar to how Western and Chinese are for example, though more tech groups would be welcome indeed. for example Southern Asian to be split from the Chinese tech group.
This however would probably open a floodgate of people demanding "French and Germanic Tech groups" and the likes. not that it'd necessarily would be bad thing.

 

[Palatinus Germanicus]

I think EU3 did a much better job on this topic (at least it tried). EU3 even had Bosnians. Where's Bosnians in EU4? Yeah, they're Serbs... not even in the game. I don't care... I'm not Bosnian. But I do notice. And when I see things like that, it's just EU4 telling me: "Hey, don't take me as seriously as you did EU3."

The whole purpose of the Turko-super-culture-group is to overpower the Ottomans. Along with all that extra (bogus) development they get. Not to mention all their other buffed-up stuff. Again, I can't take it seriously.

I play it for a fun, strategy challenge. But to sit here and philosophize deeply about a game that obviously can't even take itself seriously... I just don't get it.

 

[DanubianCossak]

EU3 even had Bosnians.

I dont think you have a clue about what youre talking about.

 

[Grand Historian]

I dont think you have a clue about what youre talking about.

No, he's right; EU3 did have Bosnians.

They all just happened to be Serbs.

 

[Palatinus Germanicus]

Wasn't 'Tatar' (I say Tartar for some reason) separated from Altaic, just for balancing purposes? Anybody ever unite the Tatar peoples/group under the reformed Golden Horde? It's hard not to go broke, because you don't have enough development in the group. What development there is, is spread so thin... and you can only make so many states. So unless you accept Ryazanian & Muscovite & make them 'your own' -- you stand no chance, financially. So is that 'balanced'?

My point? What's 'balancing' got to do with anything? There's culture groups that have just been left out in the cold -- nobody cares about them. That culture group in east-central India... add up the total development for the entire group -- is THAT balanced? Seriously, go look at it. It's pathetic. There was no 'gameplay balancing' for any of their benefit.... none. But the Seljuk Turks... they get all this special treatment? OK.

I dont think you have a clue about what youre talking about.

You're pretty much right, the last thing I am is an expert on the Balkans. But I do have this theory that "Bosnian people exist". -And they should have the Bosnian cores. And it's not just that. There's Croatian-cultured provinces that don't have cores for Croatia. There's Armenian provinces that don't have Armenian cores. There's lots of things like this, all over the map, which is why I came in so harshly saying, "I can't take it as seriously."