Turkish Culture Really Needs A Redo (Or: This thread again)

[Kalderus]

One wacky, yet possibly workable solution is to put Turkish into the "Tartar" culture group along with Crimean, Kazani, Astrakhani, Nogai etc. Although the Ottos never conquered most of these culture regions and don't completely share backgrounds with these cultures, linguistically/ethnically it still makes WAY more sense than grouping them with Arabic cultures.

Putting Turkish into the Tartar culture group would not only break up the unholy, horrendous behemoth that is the "Levantine" culture group, but also increase Ottoman-Russian hostility and prevent Turko-Russian hugboxes against Poland, due to the Ottoman AI presumably desiring the Tartar provinces from Russia (assuming they do conquer them as usual).

Of course, this could lead to the unfortunate side effect of the Ottoman AI rampaging northwards to the Urals as early as 1460, but it still might nevertheless be worth a try, if presuming, putting Turkish into its own lonely culture group, or re-adding the Oghuz group for Nogai-Turkish-Turkmeni-Uzbek (or something similar and moving each of these cultures into it) are off the table.

 

[holyvigil]

I'm guessing they are remiss to change it because of AI behavior. AI must target their own culture nowadays or something of that sort. I think this because this is one of the slowest things that is changed and many bugs with AI behavior take many patches to change.

 

[Kalderus]

I'm guessing they are remiss to change it because of AI behavior. AI must target their own culture nowadays or something of that sort. I think this because this is one of the slowest things that is changed and many bugs with AI behavior take many patches to change.

If this is the case, why would they add Khaleeji/gulf-arab culture as part of the "Levantine/Ottoman" group and extend it all the way to Baluchistan? Is Johan seriously trying to encourage the Ottomans to take a bee-line to Sind and box in Persia before it can have a chance to form?

 

[FleetingRain]

The biggest cultures in Levantine, besides Turkish, are Syrian and Egyptian.

Both are in territories which the Ottomans get claims on from missions (Conquer Egypt, Conquer Levant).

The others are Hejazi (in lands they didn't control directly IIRC but let's say they did), Yemeni (they had to deal with Rassids pestering them until they gave up in this time period), Mahri (didn't even go there), Omani (nope), Mashriqi (okay I guess) and Khaleeji (come on now).

So, should we take Turkish out of Levantine and make those missions turn both cultures into accepted for free upon completion, only Mashriqi would be left out.

And guess what? They do have an NI that gives an extra accepted culture! So yeah, I'd guess we are on to something here.

 

[durbal]

I don't understand any kind of reasoning that allows Turkish to be in the same culture group as Egyptian and the arabic cultures. What's especially strange is that some people seem reluctant to just straight up take Turkish out of these culture groups because they seem to think Turkish would be too weakened as its own culture group. That idea makes little sense given that Turkish culture alone has more development than 70% or so of other culture groups. The Ottomans should have to accept cultures (which they're able to do as they have NIs and frequently take Humanist anyway) just as the Ottoman Empire actually did anyway. Giving them freebies that make no historical sense is just silly.

And the hand-holding to guide the AI arguments are perhaps more egregious: by those arguments we should include Hungarian in the Turkish group and start reshaping all culture groups based on historical conquests. Might as well make South American cultures Iberian then. Then culture can truly have no real meaning except as a means to an end. Sounds like real great gameplay...

 

[durbal]

The biggest cultures in Levantine, besides Turkish, are Syrian and Egyptian.

Both are in territories which the Ottomans get claims on from missions (Conquer Egypt, Conquer Levant).

The others are Hejazi (in lands they didn't control directly IIRC but let's say they did), Yemeni (they had to deal with Rassids pestering them until they gave up in this time period), Mahri (didn't even go there), Omani (nope), Mashriqi (okay I guess) and Khaleeji (come on now).

So, should we take Turkish out of Levantine and make those missions turn both cultures into accepted for free upon completion, only Mashriqi would be left out.

And guess what? They do have an NI that gives an extra accepted culture! So yeah, I'd guess we are on to something here.

Why should they receive it for free from silly railroading missions? It's not like the Ottos struggle with MP.

 

[Kalderus]

Why should they receive it for free from silly railroading missions? It's not like the Ottos struggle with MP.

The only semi-valid reason might be to prevent the Otto AI from culture-converting away Syrian, Egyptian, and Mashriqi (among others), but all this does is highlight the more serious problem of it apparently being difficult to program the AI to promote cultures (allegedly it does, or previously couldn't work properly).

 

[Grand Historian]

The only semi-valid reason might be to prevent the Otto AI from culture-converting away Syrian, Egyptian, and Mashriqi

When have they ever converted away Syrian, Egyptian and Mashriqi? I don't think they did even when Turkish had been taken out of the Arabic group.

 

[FleetingRain]

Culture used to work differently by then tho, taking those cultures usually meant they became accepted automatically.

But hell, if the issue is free MP, then upon mission completion fire an event which only one option which turns the culture accepted but take 100 DIP from Ottomans.

 

[Kalderus]

When have they ever converted away Syrian, Egyptian and Mashriqi? I don't think they did even when Turkish had been taken out of the Arabic group.

I don't recall them having done so, yet I have heard this come up as a justification frequently, founded or unfounded a claim as it may be.

 

[Xdevo]

I don't recall them having done so, yet I have heard this come up as a justification frequently, founded or unfounded a claim as it may be.

That was the reason that the Breton -> French shift was done (presumably others), which were done at the same time as the Turkish change. I don't think the Turkish change was ever given the reason of stopping conversion, only the Breton -> French. I don't recall seeing Ottos convert much outside of Anatolia (I only recall Trezibond, Albania, and Armenia late game being common conversions). I'm pretty sure the only reason given was so that the Ottos go after those lands more often (doesn't really make sense, since they get claims over almost all of it, and had no struggle getting there when they were different cultures).

The only real explanation I can think of for this to have been put in place and remain is someone important thinks the Ottomans really needed a buff, despite any and all evidence to the contrary. It certainly wouldn't be the first time something wasn't changed due to a disconnect between the audience and the creator in this game.

 

[Rikissa]

The AI's proclivity to culture-convert has varied vastly across patches, there was a time when you'd see stuff like Cosmopolitaine Warsaw.

 

[Grand Historian]

I don't recall them having done so, yet I have heard this come up as a justification frequently, founded or unfounded a claim as it may be.

I think it's a non-issue, honestly. Culture converting away Albanian is one thing, but all those cultures have too many provinces and development to be in danger of going kaput just because the Ottos conquer them. If anything, given the Ottos ideas for accepting cultures, they're more likely to just be accepted.

 

[Rabid]

That was the reason that the Breton -> French shift was done (presumably others), which were done at the same time as the Turkish change. I don't think the Turkish change was ever given the reason of stopping conversion, only the Breton -> French. I don't recall seeing Ottos convert much outside of Anatolia (I only recall Trezibond, Albania, and Armenia late game being common conversions). I'm pretty sure the only reason given was so that the Ottos go after those lands more often (doesn't really make sense, since they get claims over almost all of it, and had no struggle getting there when they were different cultures).

The only real explanation I can think of for this to have been put in place and remain is someone important thinks the Ottomans really needed a buff, despite any and all evidence to the contrary. It certainly wouldn't be the first time something wasn't changed due to a disconnect between the audience and the creator in this game.

They did need a buff many patches ago, that certainly isn't the case any more.

 

[Xdevo]

They did need a buff many patches ago, that certainly isn't the case any more.

While yes (arguably I guess) that's true, 1.15-1.16 really wasn't the time when they needed a buff, especially with the way cossacks made minor nations a huge liability due to the way favors work(ed).

 

[wingren013]

Do you have a source for this? or other historical resources to back up your claim?

That would surely be interesting news to the Greeks who fought and died for their freedom in the 1820s, let alone the victims of constant persecution and several horrid massacres throughout the 19th and early 20th century. Si tacuisses...

I could get some sources. But most (not all) of the provinces in game that have Turkish cukture at game start were populated by Hellenized Turcomans and Turkicized Greeks. While there were cultural differences between them and the greeks in Hellas, it would be disingenuous to call them foreign cultures. Also Turkish and Greek culture at the time was very different from their modern versions (modern greek culture owes itself to the revival of Hellenism in Europe during the 19th century and modern Turkish culture was an effort by the Ottomans to unify their empire culuturally)

 

[Reavici]

Kalderus - grouping Tatars with Turks is really good idea, it would be similar thing as byz culture group which includes Pontic and Greek cultures.

 

[talilu]

Kalderus - grouping Tatars with Turks is really good idea, it would be similar thing as byz culture group which includes Pontic and Greek cultures.

What kind of historical basis does that have though? Besides the religion and the same language root (not the same language), their way of life, interaction with other cultures (Persian/Arabic/Greek influence on Turks) etc are really different. Gameplay triumphs history but it doesn't outright delete it.

 

[Reavici]

Tailu - Pontian greeks have unique clothig, mentality, traditions, dance, architecture etc, which differs from mainland (hellas) Greek culture. They also speak their own dialect which is considered to be archaic greek language. While balkan Greeks were influenced by Slavs, Albanians and Turks, Pontians were under Georgian, Armenian and Anatolian influence.

Pontus (Karadeniz) is specific region, where Georgians, Lazs, Pontians and Turks (Cepnk Turks) were sharing same common culture. Even today within Turkey, this area has its own different identity.

So if Pdx merged Hellenized Pontians with mainland (Balkan) Greeks, i don't see problem to merge Turkic Tatar and anatolian Turkish cultures into one cultural family.

 

[Grand Historian]

So if Pdx merged Hellenized Pontians with mainland (Balkan) Greeks, i don't see problem to merge Turkic Tatar and anatolian Turkish cultures into one cultural family.

Difference being that every Byz player's goal is to get back into Anatolia, while the Turks are incentivized to go south and west, not north into the steepes. Now, granted, there's an argument to be made owing to the Ottos closeness with the Crimea, but we have events for that.