Turkish Culture Really Needs A Redo (Or: This thread again)

[Grand Historian]

(I really didn’t want to do another thread on this given how divisive a subject it is, but I figure if there’s ever a time it’s now. All I ask is that we remain civil and try not to delve into any discussions about Timur’s religion this time around.)

While the new Persian features were undoubtedly the meat of today’s dev diary, I think I would not be remiss in saying that more conversation and dialogue has been generated over the screenshots of the new culture and religion setups. While some of it is devoted to the absence of Copts and Assyrians, or the removal of the Maronites, the overwhelming majority of the topic has revolved around Turkish culture and it’s continued placement in the Arabic Levantine group.

Honestly, there’s not really anything new I can say about it at this point: I think it is well-established the overwhelming majority of the forums agree that the current setup regarding Turkish culture – both the Culture Group it’s in and the presentation of it as being monolithic – is a disservice, and the reasons for it are just as well known. There are numerous lines of thought and schools on what should be done about it (each having their merits, both historically speaking and gameplay wise), but all are in agreement that anything would be better than the current setup.

What I will say is that the obsolescence regarding the issue as of late is particularly odd: even more in light of the fact that RoM added in unique mechanics and flavor for the Ottomans as one of its main selling points, and the still unnamed DLC-Patch is focusing almost solely on the Near East in terms of its content and geo-political overhauls. In short; two of the best opportunities to do something about the Turkish situation have come and nothing has been done, in spite of wide requests for a change. Now, while any potential fix would be bound to upset someone given the subject, I think it would be better than having the fanbase, by and large, dissatisfied with the current setup - as we are.

To conclude this rather short plea, I would just like to petition that the current setup, the continuation of the status quo, be reconsidered.

 

[Kiyant]

I would just split the Turkish culture into several or atleast three smaller ones.
This would guarentee that the Ottomans wont expand into Persia or Central Asia because of cultural affinity and it would also remove it from the Arabic group where it doesnt belong.
It would be like : 1. Yörük (Nomad Turks)
2.Karadenizli (Black Sea Turks)
3.Anadolu (Anatolian Turks)

 

[Daddl]

We had it all at one point, didn't we?

Spoiler: Culture Groups in 1.4

Spoiler: Culture Groups in 1.8

Spoiler: Culture Groups in 1.22

http://www.eu4wiki.com/File:Culture.PNG#filehistory

We've gone from gameplay considerations to ethnic/linguistic considerations back to gameplay considerations and created a whole lot of inconsistency on the way, from Polnish and Hungarian over Finno-Ugric to Basque and Breton over Lowlander and Highlander to Turkish, Manchu and a whole lot of other things.

If you ask me: Leave culture groups together as huge blocks and don't split them into small pieces just because it may be the ethnic/lingustic/culture/historical correct thing do to. I don't want Turkish to be as sad a culture as Greek, Highlander, Korean or Manchu are. I prefer to have a glorious big cultural union with my nations and dislike those which can't have that. But that just me.

 

[Grand Historian]

If you ask me: Leave culture groups together as huge blocks and don't split them into small pieces just because it may be the ethnic/lingustic/culture/historical correct thing do to. I don't want Turkish to be as sad a culture as Greek, Highlander, Korean or Manchu are.

Ignoring the fact that Turkish has a significant amount more development than all of those cultures and more provinces as well, you're running on the assumption that apparently the only change people want is to isolate Turkish and do nothing else.

 

[Daddl]

Ignoring the fact that Turkish has a significant amount more development than all of those cultures and more provinces as well, you're running on the assumption that apparently the only change people want is to isolate Turkish and do nothing else.

We had isolated turkish culture (well, in a group with Azerbaijani and Turkmeni) between 1.8 and 1.16, November 2014 until April 2016. Apparently some Devs back then didn't like this as well and changed it to how it was previously. Do we really have to revert the reversal again?

I'm merely pointing out that we already did have almost any culture setup for a lot of different offenders at some point in time and I personally dislike splitting and creating smaller culture groups, worst case to geographically separate them. It only leads to culture conversion and culture disappearance.

I understand all points you can make for this change for realism and balances sake, but I would still prefer it to stay as it is, just as I would prefer Manchu back in the Chinese group and Highlander back in the English group.

 

[Grand Historian]

Do we really have to revert the reversal again?

No. We build upon it and learn from its faults.

This is not a dichotomy.

 

[Amosifo]

I don't understand why the turks are still in levantine culture group. Because they rule them for a long time or they have similar custom? With that logic you can put the turks with the greeks serbs and bulgarian as well.

I don't get it Paradox you have done it for some nomadics culture you can do it for turks as well. Some of them where still nomadic and split in anatolia middle east and in some part of central asia at that time.

As told above you can make three different groups with the yörük türkmen and laz.

Ps: The "azeri" word to call turkmen of that region is a soviet invention, it's anachronic within the timeline of the game.

 

[Rikissa]

I've never seen anyone agree on how Turkish should be split. I was never quite happy with the way they split Russian culture, it always seemed anachronistic to see Novgorodian culture and Novgorod's cores survive into the 1800s.

 

[Grand Historian]

I've never seen anyone agree on how Turkish should be split.

Nor did I say that they have - quite the contrary, in fact, I acknowledged the number of propositions about it. The only thing I said the forums agreed on was that it needs to be done.

 

[Ostovar Hossein]

Nor did I say that they have - quite the contrary, in fact, I acknowledged the number of propositions about it. The only thing I said the forums agreed on was that it needs to be done.

Very good point I also would like to point out that in southern Persia I don't know how they added it to Ottomans culture group lol.

 

[Grand Historian]

Very good point I also would like to point out that in southern Persia I don't know how they added it to Ottomans culture group lol.

I believe it's supposed to represent Gulf Arabic.

 

[Ostovar Hossein]

I believe it's supposed to represent Gulf Arabic.

Ah Soo I think this is the core issue here considering they never went under ottoman rule 1 can argue they should be their own seperatiest culture group from Persian and Turkish. Also I want to ask you what you think about Azari turks do you think they should stay under Persian culture group or be part of Turkish one?

 

[Haydar]

The "gameplay reasons" excuse isn't convincing anyway. Below is the Ottoman Empire at its highest.

- Hungarian is not part of the Ottoman culture group.
- Crimean is not part of the Ottoman Culture group.
- Tuareg and Barber are not part of the Ottoman Culture group.
- But Omani is, which Ottos never ever controlled.

Ottoman Empire being the cultural union for all the Levantine cultures is nonsense. Most of my games since the culture change have been about destroying this fake entity by either Byzantium, Mamluks or Aq Qoyunlu Turks are as Arabic as English are French. And unlike Hungarians, Slovaks and Romanians, they never lived together. Especially until 1444.

This is the Umayyad Caliphate (661-750):

This is the Abbasid Caliphate torn down by the Mongol invasion by mid 13th century:

I think the lack of Arabic influence in Western Anatolia during the peak of Arabic power is clear on these maps. That part of the map should have its own unique culture group, as it wasn't homogeneous in itself either. Turkmeni tribes came from the Northeast, conquered Persia and carried that culture into Anatolia and didn't push the locals to the West, but mixed with them and adopted some of their culture too. That is a unique blend, similar to the Slavicized Huns (Hungarians).

 

[Grand Historian]

Ah Soo I think this is the core issue here considering they never went under ottoman rule 1 can argue they should be their own seperatiest culture group from Persian and Turkish. Also I want to ask you what you think about Azari turks do you think they should stay under Persian culture group or be part of Turkish one?

In my opinion, if/when Turkish gets split up, it would make sense for Azeri to be included in the new Turkish group. However, I'm not certain it would be the best choice, but there certainly would be solid justification for it. I'm undecided, to put it simply.

 

[Haydar]

Ah Soo I think this is the core issue here considering they never went under ottoman rule 1 can argue they should be their own seperatiest culture group from Persian and Turkish. Also I want to ask you what you think about Azari turks do you think they should stay under Persian culture group or be part of Turkish one?

Azeri and Turkish should be in different groups due to "gameplay reasons". I can understand that. Otherwise Otto AI will try to expand east, but it never really did. Because it was Shia land.

 

[Ostovar Hossein]

Azeri and Turkish should be in different groups due to "gamplay reasons". I can understand that. Otherwise Otto AI will try to expand east, but it never really did. Because it was Shia land.

I think we need to look and see what truly is the key to divide cultures? Is it language is it religion Azari turks do speak different dialect of Turkish and are Shia, while Anatolian turks are Sunni and speak different dialect of Turkish. But they are Turks in the end that is exactly what puzzles me.

 

[Haydar]

I think we need to look and see what truly is the key to divide cultures? Is it language is it religion Azari turks do speak different dialect of Turkish and are Shia, while Anatolian turks are Sunni and speak different dialect of Turkish. But they are Turks in the end that is exactly what puzzles me.

I definitely can read and understand Azeri much better than Arabic (I don't understand Arabic better than Greek) even after living in different side of the borders for 600 years. Though I believe, if tried to live together, there would be some awkward moments.

However if we go back and think in 1444 terms, had Ottoman Empire expanded into Azerbaijan, it wouldn't have the culture penalty but definitely the religion penalty. The problem is, the developers don't want the Otto AI to expand east. They are using culture mechanism as a tool to guide the AI, but also use it as additional immersion for the player. They just have to find a better balance point.

 

[J.Deng]

IIRC the Levantine cultural group predates the overhaul of accepted culture mechanic in RoM, which means that what once was a gameplay concern has become an obsolete argument after RoM.
Which means that there is enough reason for historical correctness to be back on the menu, boys.

 

[Ostovar Hossein]

I definitely can read and understand Azeri much better than Arabic even after living in different side of the borders for 600 hundred years. Though I believe, if tried to live together, there would be some awkward moments.

However if we go back and think in 1444 terms, had Ottoman Empire expanded into Azerbaijan, it wouldn't have the culture penalty but definitely the religion penalty. The problem is, the developers don't want the Otto AI to expand east. They are using culture mechanism as a tool to guide the AI, but also use it as additional immersion for the player. They just have to find a better balance point.

Ye I understand I was born in Tehran Iran my mom is from Tabriz she speaks Azari fluently, while my dad is Persian. She never thought me her language I guess one can say I been persianised... but when we went to turkey she didn't understand their Turkish there but she did point out it was like she was in Tabriz among her own people sort of way.

 

[Haydar]

Ye I understand I was born in Tehran Iran my mom is from Tabriz she speaks Azari fluently, while my dad is Persian. She never thought me her language I guess one can say I been persianised... but when we went to turkey she didn't understand their Turkish there but she did point out it was like she was in Tabriz among her own people sort of way.

When I call Tabriz for business, each side talk his own native language. It is harder to understand the Azerbaijani of the former USSR, but still can read and understand their papers.