Finland use germany as barrier against USSR so no way it would be neutral for it will be open for USSR domination.
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
However powerful you think Turkey may have been back then, you have to agree that their military was not as great as the French. And if the Germans could defeat the French, they could definitely defeat the Turks.
Anyway, Turkey may not have a guerilla war against German occupation anyway. Depending on how Germany handled the situation, there could have been Turkish support for Germany just like in Vichy France.
After all, the Germans weren't the only ones who suffered from a humiliating peace treaty at the end of world war one. And I think that in this regard both the Germans and Turks have a common goal of regaining their territorial loses. So Turkey and Germany may be more likely to be allies than enemies.
Anyway, Turkey may not have a guerilla war against German occupation anyway. Depending on how Germany handled the situation, there could have been Turkish support for Germany just like in Vichy France.
After all, the Germans weren't the only ones who suffered from a humiliating peace treaty at the end of world war one. And I think that in this regard both the Germans and Turks have a common goal of regaining their territorial loses. So Turkey and Germany may be more likely to be allies than enemies.
But the French and Turkish geography are two very different things. This is not our next door neighbour with friendly terrain.
The nationalist sentiments of the Turks were quite rampant at the times and they certainly would not accept German supremacy over their country. Ataturk might be dead, but his idea and nationalist ideals absolutely lived on. The endgame after WW1 showed that the Turks could and would fight back against foreign invaders - and that resolve and ability had hardly been diminished since then.
What this has to do with whether Germany could conquer Turkey is beyond me? But sure: Turkey could attain territorial expansion in Greece and the Middle East through an alliance with Germany - and a valuable partner against the USSR - but Inonu didn´t want to risk anything by entering the war (untill it was won).
Sokullu,
I retreat my colonialistic crap in shame. I am not the one who pledged everyday in primary school, standing upright, my hands locked on my sides, reciting "I am Turk, I am righteous, I am industrious" to my brainwashed and brainwashing teachers. My high school history teacher did not call Greeks dirty and mischievous. He has not taught us that native Americans are Turks. I am not living in a country where a reporter got jailed recently for calling the Kurdish policy of the Turkish Army nationalistic and racist. People close to me did not get jailed and tortured for what they wrote and thought.
I am not Turkish, I do not love my birthplace, my country, my home as much as you do, and I definetly do not love truth, preferring instead what sounds comforting. I am a sophist, or better, a disguised fascist wearing the tired and tried mask of national solidarity.
You accuse me of having "white men superiority syndrome". If anything, you are the one being racist by creating a category on race, by pitting your professed race in comparison to what you allege to be mine. I do not belong to any race, except, and most willingly, to the human race.
Who was a Turk anyway? Is it a race? A language? Anyone who happened to be in the area when Ataturk declared the borders of the new republic? Thankfully the Armenians had "left", they could have complicated the matter, as the Kurds have done. Oh, sorry, there is no such thing as a Kurd, as Evren (the president of Turkey after the 1980 military coup) said: they are called Kurds, because that's the sound their shoes make when they walk on snow.
Is this nationalistic self-contempt? Perhaps. But I believe that such political stance is necessary to shake and put some pressure on deeply ingrained beliefs.
Grossly off-topic, I apologize from the browsers of the forum who came here looking for something relevant to HOI. I felt it had to be said though.
I retreat my colonialistic crap in shame. I am not the one who pledged everyday in primary school, standing upright, my hands locked on my sides, reciting "I am Turk, I am righteous, I am industrious" to my brainwashed and brainwashing teachers. My high school history teacher did not call Greeks dirty and mischievous. He has not taught us that native Americans are Turks. I am not living in a country where a reporter got jailed recently for calling the Kurdish policy of the Turkish Army nationalistic and racist. People close to me did not get jailed and tortured for what they wrote and thought.
I am not Turkish, I do not love my birthplace, my country, my home as much as you do, and I definetly do not love truth, preferring instead what sounds comforting. I am a sophist, or better, a disguised fascist wearing the tired and tried mask of national solidarity.
You accuse me of having "white men superiority syndrome". If anything, you are the one being racist by creating a category on race, by pitting your professed race in comparison to what you allege to be mine. I do not belong to any race, except, and most willingly, to the human race.
Who was a Turk anyway? Is it a race? A language? Anyone who happened to be in the area when Ataturk declared the borders of the new republic? Thankfully the Armenians had "left", they could have complicated the matter, as the Kurds have done. Oh, sorry, there is no such thing as a Kurd, as Evren (the president of Turkey after the 1980 military coup) said: they are called Kurds, because that's the sound their shoes make when they walk on snow.
Is this nationalistic self-contempt? Perhaps. But I believe that such political stance is necessary to shake and put some pressure on deeply ingrained beliefs.
Grossly off-topic, I apologize from the browsers of the forum who came here looking for something relevant to HOI. I felt it had to be said though.
I am sorry, but this is complete crap. Stooping to this level is IMO less than applaudable. The deficits of the Turkish state are well-documented, but how they are relevant here is unclear. You seem to imply that no Turkish person could be capable of forming his own opponion and that they all are responsible for the Armenian genocide.
You go far beyond the limits of acceptable behavior. Try reading his suggestions instead ("The Emergence of Modern Turkey" is good at least) and perhaps even growing out of your temper?
Yes, I'd imagine it to be similar to the German occupation of the Balkans, only more difficult.
Perhaps there is a miscommunication. I did not imply that no Turks are capable of forming their opinions, nor did I imply that they all are responsible for the genocide.
The first assertion would contradict what I or Sokullu have written, for both of us are Turkish.
The second would contradict what the Turkish State is saying on the Armenian Genocide, that it did not take place. Their history books, approved and enforced on high school curriculums as national history by the Turkish ministry of education, do not devote a single page to the deportations. Fortunately, though, my teacher had the common courtesy not to insult our intelligence and said that they simply perished while they were emigrating. Yet, I digress once again to irony, and this time even the context does not call for it.
Let me tell you, then, that you are right.
The Turks who do form their own opinions that opposes/criticizes the established structure of the State get jailed, or their books are "collected," or are otherwise silenced.
As for the Armenian genocide, related only tangentially to my "argument", yes, we (those who call themselves Turkish or historians) are all responsible and should accordingly do what must be done, learn what must be learnt and change what must be changed.
Well the Balkans siphoned off 25 German divisions from Barbarossa...If they went into Turkey as well...maybe another 40..or so....you can pretty much cancel Barbarossa then. Getting involved in Yugoslavia was a huge mistake...it may have caused Germany...if not the war the Eastern front...If Turkey can be cajoled into aligning with the axis powers in the short term it would only have helped...long term assistance cannot be measured accurately without knowing the extent of Axis success...This of course cannot be judged.
Just remember that the Germans and their allies weren't exactly holding back in terms of troop committments to the various fronts (but primarily the eastern front)... so it is not necessarily the case that there would have been surplus soldiers available to occupy Turkey.
Postulate a German invasion of Turkey - could the Turks prevent the panzers from rolling through the country to the Caucasus oil fields. I don't believe so. Could they prevent Germany from supplying a significant force in the Southern Caucasus - yes. Would the Russians take the opportunity to "liberate" parts of Eastern Turkey to protect their Southern flank - very possibly.
The idea that Germany could have won the war by invading Turkey and attacking the Russian oilfields from the south has been proposed before but I doubt seriously that Turkey and / or Russia would have sat back and let them waltz through to the oilfields.
And can we leave the insults to the OT forum please.
The idea that Germany could have won the war by invading Turkey and attacking the Russian oilfields from the south has been proposed before but I doubt seriously that Turkey and / or Russia would have sat back and let them waltz through to the oilfields.
And can we leave the insults to the OT forum please.
Not to mention that going into Turkey automatically puts off the attack on Russia into 1942. But the supply situation in the Caucasus wouldn't be impossible, since the Germans could presumably use sea supply.
Anyway, it'll be interesting to try in the game.
Anyway, it'll be interesting to try in the game.
I started this thread to see how Turkey was going to be handled in HOI. And then this person starts attacking my intelligence.
---
To Altuar:
You have your version of history, and you are entitled to believe what you want to believe.
But your insults just humor me, I won't write here to satisfy your desire to pick up a word fight.
And what's this:
....I am not Turkish....
....The first assertion would contradict what I or Sokullu have written, for both of us are Turkish....
Funny.
So off with you.
----
To bogh:
Thank you for answering him.
Now back to the real thing.
What I understand now:
-We will be able to play Turkey in HOI.
-They will be neutral.
And the million dollar question:
Will Turkey (or any other neutral nation for that matter) be able to join either the allies or the axis?
All other discussions here were speculations on what ifs, which I think is pretty healthy. Plus they could be tried in HOI which will make it an entertaining game...
---
To Altuar:
You have your version of history, and you are entitled to believe what you want to believe.
But your insults just humor me, I won't write here to satisfy your desire to pick up a word fight.
And what's this:
....I am not Turkish....
....The first assertion would contradict what I or Sokullu have written, for both of us are Turkish....
Funny.
So off with you.
----
To bogh:
Thank you for answering him.
Now back to the real thing.
What I understand now:
-We will be able to play Turkey in HOI.
-They will be neutral.
And the million dollar question:
Will Turkey (or any other neutral nation for that matter) be able to join either the allies or the axis?
All other discussions here were speculations on what ifs, which I think is pretty healthy. Plus they could be tried in HOI which will make it an entertaining game...
Originally posted by Hartmann
Easy question: answer is "yes".
Now where are my million dollars?
Hartmann
I say yes too, so I also should get a million dollars.
We already know they will be able to, becaue one of the few bits of info we know about HOI is that it will be possible to play any country and change history.
I wonder what the chance for AI Turkey entering the war would be-- hopefuly very low, since this would really be a gigantic advantage to whichever side got them.
Exactly my point.
And for those who answer the million dollar question, We have to divide the prize by two. And the more people answer it the more we have to divide it.
Sorry guys only 1 million dollars...
The matter will be closed, yes, but you have not been able to understand what I was saying.
I am Turkish; the first quotation is from my reply to you, which was dripping with irony. You could not see it, which leads me to belive that you have not read it properly.
The second quotation is from my reply to a thrid party, and this time I almost stopped being ironical, and spoke the bare truth about myself, as it was.
If you are willing to stay tangled in the dark web, then I cannot and will not help you. I will respect your freedom, even if that means I pity you. There is, however, a hope in me that something in you will react to what I have said and finally wake up to what could be first glimmerings of intellectual freedom. In that light, I beg you to reread what I have written.
Enough ethics and politics. Enjoy your game and your life.