Turkey in WW II

[Jools]

If Finland was neutral in WW2, would you think that it would've fended off a Soviet invasion?

Same goes for Turkey, if they had a wise strategy and good tactics they could've fended the Germansd off.
What about the Poles? If the Polish HQ stafff would'nt have run away to Romania on the 6th day of fighting and if they had any strategy, except for waiting form england to attack, could they have fended off the Germans (par USSR). Now, this game will allow us to see what happens when we do the what if's. That's fun.

 

[unmerged(4273)]

Originally posted by JoseM


i know ur a fan of turkey but, turkey wasnt event strong and could be invaded and anexed by germany faster... France had the best army in 1939 and 1 year later when germany started the war against france then they got invaded in 1 month... what i mean is that turkey wouldnt resist to the germans, and if they were of the germans side, then they wouldnt do much, same like italy... only making mistakes.

Well, the only hitch to Turkey vs. France is that Turkey would have been a larger logistical problem for Germany than France was because of distance, terrain, etc.

But even given some scenario where the Reich conquers Turkey in '41, I cannot foresee that the German military would have had the reach to conquer and hold the Middle Eastern oil fields as well as successfully achieve all of their other objectives -- things that they couldn't even achieve in real life anyhow (such as conquering the Sovs, not getting conquered, etc. ).

 

[AlanC9]

Originally posted by Heliumgod
But even given some scenario where the Reich conquers Turkey in '41, I cannot foresee that the German military would have had the reach to conquer and hold the Middle Eastern oil fields as well as successfully achieve all of their other objectives -- things that they couldn't even achieve in real life anyhow (such as conquering the Sovs, not getting conquered, etc. ).

The Middle Eastern oil fields aren't really significant here. Although I don't see why Germany wouldn't have been able to make a play for them (Britain isn't in a much better logistical position in the region), taking them doesn't gain Germany anything. Britain can get oil from the US, and Germany has no way to transport much of the oil home.

The point of going into Turkey is to take the Caucasus oil fields, which would devastate Russia.

 

[Lord Martin]

You have all forgot that the best time for Turkey to become an allied (the end of the war don´t included) was before the German attack on the Balkan states. If Turkey had joined with Greece before the German attack it´s possible that they (maybe together with an british help force) had hold back the axis. Maybe not very likly but it´s a possibility

 

[unmerged(4273)]

Originally posted by AlanC9


The Middle Eastern oil fields aren't really significant here. Although I don't see why Germany wouldn't have been able to make a play for them (Britain isn't in a much better logistical position in the region), taking them doesn't gain Germany anything. Britain can get oil from the US, and Germany has no way to transport much of the oil home.

The point of going into Turkey is to take the Caucasus oil fields, which would devastate Russia.

Well I know that, but Krunch's original example postulated the German's seizing the ME oil fields, so I mentioned them. The fact that they had not yet been devloped to their potential is definitely not lost on me, though.

However, what I was saying was that I do not think it would be very feasible for the Germans to commit the logistical support necessary to conquer Turkey (Anatolia is not as well suited as the steppes of western Russia to the blitzkrieg ) as well as conquer and hold the Middle-East, while still achieving aims in Russia, etc.

Please note that I was stating that I consider all of these things very unlikely in the context of a 1941 action, again as per Krunch's original proposed scenario.

 

[unmerged(8451)]

Originally posted by Heliumgod


Well I know that, but Krunch's original example postulated the German's seizing the ME oil fields, so I mentioned them. The fact that they had not yet been devloped to their potential is definitely not lost on me, though.

However, what I was saying was that I do not think it would be very feasible for the Germans to commit the logistical support necessary to conquer Turkey (Anatolia is not as well suited as the steppes of western Russia to the blitzkrieg ) as well as conquer and hold the Middle-East, while still achieving aims in Russia, etc.

Please note that I was stating that I consider all of these things very unlikely in the context of a 1941 action, again as per Krunch's original proposed scenario.

My hypothetical was meant to be poking fun at the weakness of the Turks. I wanted to illustrate how it could possibly have given the Axis an advantage if the Turks decided to declare war on the Axis.

The oil in the middle east is extremely easy to extract, because it is so close to the surface, and in extreme abundance. While it is true that not many oil fields existed at this time, the Germans could have developed some in a relatively short time. Perhaps just a few years.

Other than oil, it is also possible that the Germans could have gained other advantages in the middle east. The nationalistic Arabs who wanted their own independent countries may have found it worthwhile to cast their support in with Germany against Britain. If Germany managed to seize the middle east, the inhabitants there would certainly view them as the winning side and would be inclined to support them. Perhaps you would see Muslims volunteering support to Germany to fight against the Soviet Union to "liberate" formerly independent muslim lands there. Such as Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, etc.

Iraq in the 30s was very supportive of Nazi Germany. So there is a historical basis of Arab support for Germany....

 

[unmerged(9167)]

The oil in the middle east is extremely easy to extract, because it is so close to the surface, and in extreme abundance. While it is true that not many oil fields existed at this time, the Germans could have developed some in a relatively short time. Perhaps just a few years.

Other than oil, it is also possible that the Germans could have gained other advantages in the middle east. The nationalistic Arabs who wanted their own independent countries may have found it worthwhile to cast their support in with Germany against Britain. If Germany managed to seize the middle east, the inhabitants there would certainly view them as the winning side and would be inclined to support them. Perhaps you would see Muslims volunteering support to Germany to fight against the Soviet Union to "liberate" formerly independent muslim lands there. Such as Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, etc.

Iraq in the 30s was very supportive of Nazi Germany. So there is a historical basis of Arab support for Germany....

I agree, it will help Nazis far more than it will help Allies, if Turkey and Mid-east went over to Nazis, at least, it would have made WWII much harder, I think that the game maker is fool for having 1946 as end date, why not 1952?

 

[AlanC9]

Originally posted by Captain Krunch
The oil in the middle east is extremely easy to extract, because it is so close to the surface, and in extreme abundance. While it is true that not many oil fields existed at this time, the Germans could have developed some in a relatively short time. Perhaps just a few years.

I still don't see how Germany transports this oil back home. The rail capacity just isn't there. Build a pipeline? Upgrade the railroads? We're talking about lots of time and expense.

The Caucasus oil is easier to bring back via the Black Sea. Of course, you have to beat the Russians, but that's kind of the point, right?

Anyone know much about the Caucasus Front in World War I?

 

[unmerged(8451)]

Originally posted by AlanC9


I still don't see how Germany transports this oil back home. The rail capacity just isn't there. Build a pipeline? Upgrade the railroads? We're talking about lots of time and expense.

The Caucasus oil is easier to bring back via the Black Sea. Of course, you have to beat the Russians, but that's kind of the point, right?

Anyone know much about the Caucasus Front in World War I?

The rail capacity was there. There was a railroad from Baghdad to Istanbul. And from Istanbul to other hubs in Europe.

And if a rail system did not exist, it could easily have been built with slave labor. And you can bet good money that the Nazis had no reservations about using slave laborers.

The Japanese built a railroad through Burma using slave labor alone. And here you had among the worst vegetations, diseases, etc to deal with in the entire world. In the middle east it would be even easier to build railroads, because they terrain is more open, and there diseases are less of an issue for the slave workers.

So, the main rail line system already existed, but even if more lengths of rail road were necessary, that wouldn't be a problem.

 

[AlanC9]

Yes, the rail line to Baghdad existed. It's not clear that it had the capacity to bring a whole lot of oil back. And building more capacity kind of misses the point. By the time you have the capacity, it's not relevant.

Say the Germans take the Middle East in late 1941. By the time they're getting really big quantities of oil from the Middle East, it's at least mid-1943 or so. By then the war is probably decided.

The Caucasus is a much better target, since it actually hurts Germany's enemies to take it.

But this whole discussion really makes me want to see how HOI will handle oil.

 

[unmerged(8451)]

Here is some interesting information

Equally startling, Adolf Hitler committed the same error. Germany entered World War II with only one source of oil: Ploesti, Romania. Ploesti, and synthetic oil produced from coal, were never able to supply German forces with adequate fuel or artificial rubber. Neither Japan nor Germany understood they were about to wage strategic industrial warfare on an unprecedented scale.

I don't think the war would be decided in 1943 if Germany did not declare war on the Soviets. The middle east is probably a much easier target to hit than the Caucuses (the middle east at this time were defended only by british and french colonial forces and were in no position to defend agaisnt a full blown German offensive.) With the middle east secured, Germany could simply bid their time and build up their forces and be better prepared for their offensive against the Soviets.

Germany did not have sufficient oil to meet their needs as the above quote illustrates. Most of their sources came from Ploesti in Romania, this was a key target by allied bombers during the war, as the Germans depended on it so much.

 

[unmerged(8451)]

And here is the site, if anyone is interested:

http://www.bigeye.com/081201.htm

 

[Altuar]

Originally posted by Sokollu
Have you no knowledge of history?

When was the last time Asia Minor was invaded and held more than 2 years? (Both Timur and the Greeks were gone in 2 years...)

I can never see Turkey annexed, of course if they joined the axis most of the things you said could have come true..

Oh, please....

Have you no knowledge of history?

You can never see Turkey annexed, but I can more or less assure you that the Wehrmacht could, if it ever came to that.

Learn to take the nationalistic crap drilled into your head at the Turkish high schools with a grain (or a whole lot) of salt. Start with Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities. Then have a look at historiography of the late Ottoman Empire and the Turkish Republic.

Heck, you probably cant see yourself amidst all the noise. I dont blame you. But before you become a cog in the outdated nationalistic machine that feeds on itself, know yourself. Who are you? No doubt history books will help, but you need to judge them with a critical eye, an eye that looks inward as well.

 

[unmerged(4959)]

Originally posted by AlanC9
I still don't see how Germany transports this oil back home. The rail capacity just isn't there. Build a pipeline? Upgrade the railroads? We're talking about lots of time and expense.

This Axis Middle East oil gambit always was a total fantasy for the reasons that you describe above (and many others) - and quite sensibly the Germans never seriously considered it. But it continues to excite the minds of people to this day, mainly because they haven't seriously considered the logistical nightmare it would have been. Ah well, we all have our daydreams.

 

[unmerged(4273)]

Originally posted by Captain Krunch


My hypothetical was meant to be poking fun at the weakness of the Turks. I wanted to illustrate how it could possibly have given the Axis an advantage if the Turks decided to declare war on the Axis.

The oil in the middle east is extremely easy to extract, because it is so close to the surface, and in extreme abundance. While it is true that not many oil fields existed at this time, the Germans could have developed some in a relatively short time. Perhaps just a few years.

Other than oil, it is also possible that the Germans could have gained other advantages in the middle east. The nationalistic Arabs who wanted their own independent countries may have found it worthwhile to cast their support in with Germany against Britain. If Germany managed to seize the middle east, the inhabitants there would certainly view them as the winning side and would be inclined to support them. Perhaps you would see Muslims volunteering support to Germany to fight against the Soviet Union to "liberate" formerly independent muslim lands there. Such as Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, etc.

Iraq in the 30s was very supportive of Nazi Germany. So there is a historical basis of Arab support for Germany....

Oh, don't think that I disagree with you -- or take you too seriously (hope that you'll return the favour )... but I do think that the Arabs might have turned into at least as serious of a liability as the Italians rolleyes: D)).

Honestly, I do not feel that a campaign through Turkey and the Middle-East up to the Caucasus could have been have had long term success given the need to protect Poland and the Reich itself from any possible German counterattack in the 1941 time frame that you had initially suggested in your hypothetical scenario tho.

 

[AlanC9]

Originally posted by Captain Krunch
Here is some interesting information



I don't think the war would be decided in 1943 if Germany did not declare war on the Soviets. The middle east is probably a much easier target to hit than the Caucuses (the middle east at this time were defended only by british and french colonial forces and were in no position to defend agaisnt a full blown German offensive.) With the middle east secured, Germany could simply bid their time and build up their forces and be better prepared for their offensive against the Soviets.

Germany did not have sufficient oil to meet their needs as the above quote illustrates. Most of their sources came from Ploesti in Romania, this was a key target by allied bombers during the war, as the Germans depended on it so much.

Oh, I see. Yes, that would give them more oil for the attack on Russia. But it also delays the attack on Russia until 1943 or so, right? I'm not sure that ends up being a net positive.

And, of course, the Allies can't bomb Ploesti if it's out of range, which is why the oil wasn't touched until after the invasion of Italy. (I think the Crimea's in bomber range too).

 

[unmerged(8451)]

Originally posted by AlanC9


Oh, I see. Yes, that would give them more oil for the attack on Russia. But it also delays the attack on Russia until 1943 or so, right? I'm not sure that ends up being a net positive.

And, of course, the Allies can't bomb Ploesti if it's out of range, which is why the oil wasn't touched until after the invasion of Italy. (I think the Crimea's in bomber range too).

Ploesti was in range of bases in North Africa, but only just barely. The distance was so great that sometimes planes fell into the Mediterranean on their return trip, because they had ran out of fuel.

The allies started bombing it before they had control of Italy, and the amount of casualties suffered by the allies from such a long trip through Axis territory was alarming. But despite the casulaties, it was so valuable a target that allied commanders didn't care about the lives they sacrificed.

I was a bit surprised that the Germans managed to sythesize so much of their oil from coal. I didn't know this could be done. I wonder if the game will allow countries to synthesize their own oil if they have none.

In 1945 the Japanese even used soybean oil imported from manchuria, using submarines as transports. It shows how desperate their situation was. The soybean oil was used to power a few destroyers on a suicide assault on Okinawa. The ships burning it emitted a green smoke and ultimately had to pull back because it damaged the engines. But I guess if the engines were specially designed for it, they could have handled the soybean oil. And thus, Japan could have bypassed the embargo, and would not have had to attack the Dutch east indies.

 

[unmerged(7536)]

Originally posted by Altuar


Oh, please....

Have you no knowledge of history?

You can never see Turkey annexed, but I can more or less assure you that the Wehrmacht could, if it ever came to that.

Learn to take the nationalistic crap drilled into your head at the Turkish high schools with a grain (or a whole lot) of salt. Start with Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities. Then have a look at historiography of the late Ottoman Empire and the Turkish Republic.

Heck, you probably cant see yourself amidst all the noise. I dont blame you. But before you become a cog in the outdated nationalistic machine that feeds on itself, know yourself. Who are you? No doubt history books will help, but you need to judge them with a critical eye, an eye that looks inward as well.

First of all when I said that I can't see Turkey annexed I meant in the HOI timeframe. And believe me the Wehrmacht could not annex it. Just for the simple fact that they were overextended and a guerilla war in the Turkish heartland is not something easily said than done.

There was no nationalistic crap here, but of course your colonialistic crap is wide open. This is called the "white men superiority syndrome".

Your pitiful and attacking style of writing without any background information is evidently signs of this syndrome. But not to worry, it is curable a good deal of history reading and ridding yourself from your previous prejudices should do the trick.

Since you are using the wrong crap here (trying to apply a colonialistic crap on a region where it has never been colonized) I predict your historical knowlege is not enough on the subject to debate it.

So what do you do? Read them:

- The Emergence of Modern Turkey (Studies in Middle Eastern History) by Bernard Lewis

- Turkey Before and After Ataturk : Internal and External Affairs
by Sylvia Kedourie

- A Nation of Empire : The Ottoman Legacy of Turkish Modernity
by Michael E. Meeker

- The Ill-Made Alliance : Anglo-Turkish Relations, 1934-1940
by Brock Millman

- Churchill's Secret War : Diplomatic Decrypts, the Foreign Office and Turkey 1942-44 by Robin Denniston

Then we can have any kind of civilized discussion, and without accusations of drilling with grains of salt or whaever term you want to use.

 

[AlanC9]

Originally posted by Sokollu
First of all when I said that I can't see Turkey annexed I meant in the HOI timeframe. And believe me the Wehrmacht could not annex it. Just for the simple fact that they were overextended and a guerilla war in the Turkish heartland is not something easily said than done.

Before this gets any uglier, what do we mean by "annexed" here?

I'd agree that Germany could not have dominated Turkey to the same extent that they did France. But surely the Germans could have occupied the country as they did Yugoslavia, controlling the major cities and the rail lines.

Of course, this would have required a major troop commitment. But most of those troops would have been from the satellite powers, plus some French SS trash and the like.

 

[unmerged(9129)]

Originally posted by Jools
If Finland was neutral in WW2, would you think that it would've fended off a Soviet invasion?

Same goes for Turkey, if they had a wise strategy and good tactics they could've fended the Germansd off.
What about the Poles? If the Polish HQ stafff would'nt have run away to Romania on the 6th day of fighting and if they had any strategy, except for waiting form england to attack, could they have fended off the Germans (par USSR). Now, this game will allow us to see what happens when we do the what if's. That's fun.

finalnd wasnt neutral in ww2, they joined the axis because they were angry for the winter war (1940)...