Tuesday Game 2

[unmerged(17563)]

Well I guess that this game is dead then.

I reckon if we start a fresh we should be able to pick up some new players and have avibrant and happy little plating group once again. I'll open Tuesday 3 shortly

 

[admiral drake]

sorry guys i planned to play today stil having hg taek over next week tho slept trhough my alarm

 

[unmerged(17563)]

Lets start a fresh then guys, see the new thread

 

[Veilwalker]

Yep, we have a perception that's very out of sync with reality. Bush closed the border to Canadian beef, to Canadian lumber, etc... That's free trade for you. But yeah, I'm aware that Kerry is supposedly more "protectionist" than Bush is, but in practice, Bush has made more protectionist policies toward Canada than Kerry probably would have, all protectionist that he is. Anyway, race is over now. Just doesn't look good, another 4 years of ambivalent relations with the US, despite our wishes to have the usually solid relations.

Canadian beef was closed because of Mad Cow disease and a hoof and mouth breakout. I can see how that was a bad decision to try to protect the several billion dollar US beef industry.

Canadian lumber I am not sure what that was about so I can't really speak on that and I am too tired to look it up but if those are you only 2 examples for protectionism then that is quite weak.

I don't blame the President for turning a cold shoulder to Canada after all of the horrible things your leaders have said about him and the way they have gone out of their way to disrupt the foreign policy of the U.S. and to side with nations who see the world as a zero-sum game where when the U.S. loses they gain.

 

[Tem_Probe]

Canadian beef was closed because of Mad Cow disease and a hoof and mouth breakout. I can see how that was a bad decision to try to protect the several billion dollar US beef industry.

Which is fine, I wouldn't have done any less, except that it wasn't reopened after the disease was controlled and exterminated. It has been quite a while that there isn't any more problems of that kind with the beef here, but the border remains closed to this day.

Canadian lumber I am not sure what that was about so I can't really speak on that and I am too tired to look it up but if those are you only 2 examples for protectionism then that is quite weak.

Essentially because we have more lumber available and the value of the CAN$(less true now), our lumber is cheaper. Duties and tarriffs have been applied to the lumber and the money taxed is given directly to the US lumber producers. When the primary argument is that Canadian lumber is subsidised, I find that weak, considering it isn't. Almost everytime we appealed to the courts or panels for settlement, at the FTA, NAFTA or WTO, it was found that the tarriffs were injustly imposed. And immediately after a decision was rendered, the tarriffs and duties were imposed back on the lumber on various grounds. Its getting silly that the lumber is taxed to subsidize your lumber industry so it can sell its own lumber cheaper.

I don't blame the President for turning a cold shoulder to Canada after all of the horrible things your leaders have said about him and the way they have gone out of their way to disrupt the foreign policy of the U.S. and to side with nations who see the world as a zero-sum game where when the U.S. loses they gain.

Canada went out of its way to disrupt your foreign policy? Ahh. Last I heard, we were helping out in Afghanistan and in the Arabian gulf. Our PM is even working to join up the ABM defense against his own party's conviction and the majority of the Canadian voters. That's disruption for you.

 

[Veilwalker]

You don't remember members of the govt. comparing Bush to Hitler and calling him an idiot and so on and so forth. I believe Canada was with France in their diplomacy to Africa to ensure that the UN did not support the invasion of Iraq. That is what I would call disruption. My understanding of Canadian involvement in Afghanistan was under the auspices of NATO rather than out of any friendly feelings towards the US.

 

[admiral drake]

many jobs lossed under bush goverment iirc not to mension stock exchange or wall street has gone down significant to under bush

 

[HolisticGod]

Veil,

"Disruption" of our foreign policy? They opposed it. Period. And last time I checked, they lived in the world too and had every right to counter the United States.

The popular delusion that the Europeans and Canadians are infringing upon our sovereignty is one of the most damning hallmarks of our politics today. I don't know where you and your ilk have gotten the idea that rest of mankind is subject to the dictums of Congress and the President, but it's simply not true. Domestic policy is national. Foreign policy is, by definition, international.

And I think, though correct me if I'm wrong, we've done a bit of infringing ourselves...

 

[Veilwalker]

Perhaps HG but if they wish to do that then they must be ready to accept the repercussions of attempting to thwart the US. Canada has only had to face a passive indifference which is much better than what they could reap in return for their actions. I never said that Canada cannot do what it wants but for it to not expect some form of repercussions for their actions is ludicrous.

 

[Veilwalker]

many jobs lossed under bush goverment iirc not to mension stock exchange or wall street has gone down significant to under bush

Job losses and the stock market are almost entirely independent of anything that the President has a direct control over. The stock market had formed an enormous bubble that was bursting before President Bush took office so to blame him for the stock market turmoil is completely short-sighted and that blame is mis-directed.

The job losses are overplayed to the extreme, the unemployment rate is still hovering around historic lows and the economy has been recovering for the past year and is solidifying and has been growing over the past few quarters.

 

[HolisticGod]

Veil,

You want to sack Ottawa, huh?

 

[Frank XIV]

Veil,

You want to sack Ottawa, huh?

Nice idea HG. In order they won't letting us to be a country, their army is so ridiculous (see submarine), their national policy is so weak and the only thing that they could do to proove a little bit they have some power (sic!) is to bash continually on Québec separatism movement.

I'm a proud american even if Bush were elected again and overall, Vive le Québec Libre!

 

[Veilwalker]

Veil,

You want to sack Ottawa, huh?

No. I have never even hinted at such a thing. A simple call for a boycott of French goods by a TV show did untold damage to said French businesses and this was without any formal backing by the government. If the President of the United States let it be known that Canada is hurting the interests of the United States then how much damage do you think would be done to the Canadian economy? The US and Canada are the largest trading partners in the world but I would have to say that Canada needs us more than we need Canada.

 

[HolisticGod]

Veil,

And I would have to say the US needs the rest of the world a hell of a lot more than the rest of the world needs us.

 

[Veilwalker]

Veil,

And I would have to say the US needs the rest of the world a hell of a lot more than the rest of the world needs us.

The economy has become too global for the world to really pull apart into separate blocks but by far the US is the most important component of the current world order. If we went in to an isolationist policy and cleaned up the remaining messes that we are involved in and then pulled all of our troops home and ignored everything that is going on I can quite safely say that the world would be a much worse place to live for everyone including us in the new Fortress America.

 

[unmerged(17563)]

No America should not withdraw herself just change her policy and try to be a bit more less hypocrtical

 

[HolisticGod]

Veil,

This is precisely the attitude that's gotten us into so much trouble. And it just so happens it's utterly wrong.

It is true that the United States, closed off completely from the rest of the world, would cause a massive global depression, particularly in high-end consumer goods. However, the damage here would be far more severe than anywhere else, and if it were to happen now would be about the time, with China becoming an industiral powerhouse and ravenous market for imports.

This idea that the US is "by far...the most important component of the current world order" reflects military rather than economic realities. There's no denying we still have the largest economy in the world, but let's not forget what would happen to use if people stopped buying our goods, working in our sweatshop factories and supplying us with oil, if all third world countries defaulted on their loans and all foreign creditors called theirs.

 

[Veilwalker]

I would never advocate a withdrawal from the world but it has seemingly become an either or situation. Either the US continues to do what its leaders believe is best even in the face of world opposition or the US doesn't do anything. The US grew to where it is by taking chances and doing the hard thing when push comes to shove; has the US always made the right choice, no it hasn't but it has never shirked from the duty of making that choice. If it were up to the Europeans and the United Nations we would still be debating the ins and outs of dictatorships and terrorists would still be in their holes plotting the next attack.

The US manufacturing sector is all but extent and that part that still exists sells predominantly in to the US economy so to say that we rely on exports more than people rely on selling to the US is a fallacy. Other than natural resources the US is capable of returning to self-sufficiency but at a great cost but our ability to do that is nearly unmatched in the world as of yet.

 

[HolisticGod]

Veil,

Er, we have a trade deficit...

In August, we imported 124 billion dollars worth of goods, while exporting 64 billion dollars. Meaning we're dependent on markets to which to sell and things to sell each other. Either way, the short-fall would destroy the US economy.

If it were up to the Europeans, we might not have a thousand American and fifteen thousand Iraqi dead, a five and seven tenths trillion dollar projected deficit, a billion people thirsting for our blood and a disastrous military commitment to a country we've been utterly incapable of pacifying, much less democratizing.

This idea that our national sovereignty includes the right to arbitrarily invade other countries is just a mite out of touch with the rest of the (modern) world.

 

[HolisticGod]

Veil,

Oh, and I ought to point out that terrorists are still in the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan and apartment buildings in sixty countries plotting...

The President hasn't changed that a bit.