Tsunami II - 1419 debate- Potential problems and solutions

[Mowers]

Well the rule is that you are allowed 1 German culture province so could have one and vassalisation is an option as well.

And as French minors get dropped we can always add minors around Burgundy if need be?

But if you do think of a better solution I am all ears, its just the only one I can come up with at the moment to deal with the problem.

 

[unmerged(15967)]

Would Luxemburg count towards that limit?

 

[Twoflower]

Originally posted by Ironfoundersson
I believe that irl Burgundy only made real attempts to conquer Alsace of the german cultured provinces, the other were the dutch provinces.

This is wrong. Kleves became more and more part of the Burgundian orbit (in EU2 terms it was a vassal) and could very well have shared the fate of Brabant if Charles hadn't died and there was a campaign to conquer Cologne in 1474.
EDIT: and of course Luxembourg was part of Burgundy.

 

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by Twoflower
This is wrong. Kleves became more and more part of the Burgundian orbit (in EU2 terms it was a vassal) and could very well have shared the fate of Brabant if Charles hadn't died and there was a campaign to conquer Cologne in 1474.
EDIT: and of course Luxembourg was part of Burgundy.

Perhaps the restriction for Burgundy then should be that she can't militarily annex any of the German states, but can only diplo-annex them? She would have to hold them for 30 years that way to be guaranteed to diplo-annex, which in the 1419 to 1474 time frame is quite a large chunk of the period.

Also I was hoping that if Burgundy survives could she have the option of becoming Holland if she wished? As opposed to releasing holland as a vassal which would obviously produce a potentially much weaker initial state.

 

[Mowers]

Originally posted by Wyvern
Perhaps the restriction for Burgundy then should be that she can't militarily annex any of the German states, but can only diplo-annex them? She would have to hold them for 30 years that way to be guaranteed to diplo-annex, which in the 1419 to 1474 time frame is quite a large chunk of the period.

Also I was hoping that if Burgundy survives could she have the option of becoming Holland if she wished? As opposed to releasing holland as a vassal which would obviously produce a potentially much weaker initial state.

1 german province to hold and as many as vassals isnt bad but I cant have seperate rules for Burgundy, its gets too confusing.

As for burgundy becoming Holland I dont think it would have become "holland". hmmm, perhaps the ideal situation would be if the Burgundy player became Austrian afterwards, this would give them considerable 'encouragement' to perform.

 

[unmerged(16323)]

I've read about 1/2 post here.. but I still don't feel I should post this, but something came to my mind:

If you (cos I don't think I'll have a cahnce of playing it ) are supposed to have a more or less historical game, than, in my opinion the following countries should be included:

1. France
2. England
3. Burgundy
4. Aragon - the HYW. Reason: starting in alliance with France, to help them out against thje Anglo-Burgundian human alliance. Besides, they are needed to balance things out in Italy
5. Austria - just to be sure they are alive
6. Venice
8. Papal States - to counter-ballance the venetian hp in northern Italy
9. Denmark
10. Poland - to ballance out Moscovy and Hungary
11. Hungary - to stop the OT advance in Europe
12. Teutonic Order - to balance out both Poland and Moscovy
13. Moscovy
14. Ottoman Empire
15. Mamelukes
16. Algiers (to stop Mameluke expansion west) or Ak Koyunul (to stop Mameluke expansion west)
17. Portugal <- they should be in... a human pleyer would develop a strong trade empire...

The Missin In Action ones :
- Castille: They didn't really expand outside the Iberian peninsula between 1419-1492. The player controlling Aragon should switch to Castille when they form Spain. This allows to save a slot.
- Sweden: early on they should be a loyal subject of the Danish crown. They shouldn't be played by humans to avoid too much expansion into Russia.
- Lithuania: mainly the same reason as Sweden. They should be AI to avoid them beating the crap out of the Moscovy human player.

the Aragon-French alliance guarantees that the French have a chance of surviving

 

[Wyvern]

Hmm, no I don't think that would work well Neuro. Mowers is right, such a spread of countries would produce too much AI bashing. Me as Moscowy could easily expand ahistorically against AI Lithuania/Sweden/GH etc. and the same applies all over the map.

The regional approach is best for game balance, the finer tweaks just need sorting out.

 

[unmerged(16323)]

Originally posted by Wyvern
Hmm, no I don't think that would work well Neuro. Mowers is right, such a spread of countries would produce too much AI bashing. Me as Moscowy could easily expand ahistorically against AI Lithuania/Sweden/GH etc. and the same applies all over the map.

The regional approach is best for game balance, the finer tweaks just need sorting out.

I said that I wasn't sure if I should post that up. I never played a MP yet, only SP, so I don't know actually how it works out in practise.

But, according to what my logical thinking tells me, the biggest flaw of the "regional approach" is: how to stop people from expanding outside the human region. I mean if there was Hungary to stop OT, but there was no Poland, Hungary would bash Poland.

And if there would be no human Moscovy, there is no quarrantythat it will form. and if it doesn't, then after the "Great Move East", Poland-Lithuania or sweden would trash Moscovy into pieces

Just nevermind my 2 cents... I never played a MP game so I'm a complete newbie. Shouldn't posted that up really

 

[Mowers]

Originally posted by Neuro
But, according to what my logical thinking tells me, the biggest flaw of the "regional approach" is: how to stop people from expanding outside the human region. I mean if there was Hungary to stop OT, but there was no Poland, Hungary would bash Poland.

Sure, but with any other approach the whole world is how you suggest. The regional approach reduces the propensity for this to occur.

The cultural solution suggested is a crude but effective tool to deal with the problem.

 

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Mowers
Red,

Some good points.
As long as the countries are introduced regionally that would be great. Western Europe and the Mediterranean would be ideal. We could introduce the culture rule (limits on what culture provisions can be held- u may never hold more than one cultural province of German, Scandinavian, Polish etc). Then strongest ‘French’ country then becomes France, complete with all his stats and we drop the culture rule. We could do the same for Castille and Aragon. The strongest one becomes Spain proper. We do the same for Scotland / England. Then with the Italians we could keep 2 and drop the weakest one.

I like this scenario and I think that it doesn't cost anything to give it a try. We can reach this scenario until 1492 and then see. I guess that if we obtain a major ahistorical situation, people will choose to drop out or find it even more interesting and motivating to carry on.
However, I'd like to push even more the idea and propose the following:

Burgundy is the only one I can’t think of a satisfactory answer to. I guess that we just have to let it go.

1419-1492 (roughly)
1) England, 2) Castile, 3) Genoa 4) Ottoman Empire 5) Venice,
6) Hungary 7) Mamelukes 8) Portugal 9) Naples 10) France, 11) Scotland, 12) Burgundy, 13) Brittany, 14) Bourbonaise,
15) Provance, 16) Aragon, 17) Algiers 18) Auvergne

Why don't put Savoy in the place of Algiers? What is the point of a human played Algiers? Algiers is in war with Portugal in the beginning and Portugal is AI played..
Also, instead of Naples, I would prefer to see Navarre in the scanario. This way the whole region will be human controled. A big mess is guaranteed

Then 1492 (ish) remove all but one French power, then remove the 2 weakest from the 3 Italian nations, Mameluks and Algiers. So we lose 8 nations and add 8
1) Poland, 2) Denmark, 3) Sweden, 4) Muscowy/Novgorod,
5) Lithuania 6) Crimea 7) Golden Horde
8) Austria.

I propose to keep Venice instead of Crimea or Golden Horde. This would keep the game to remain a bit historical. Crimea and Golden Horde's vocation is to disappear in benefit of Russia.

The come Hungary can work out who is better Hungary or Austria. Replace the country accordingly as Austria but with the others stats (bar technology) So around 1526, with the end of Hungary. We remove the weakest Eastern/ Middle Eastern state and add both the Mughals and the Persians. Removes 2 and adds 2
1) Persia
2) Mughals

Then in 1550's if Holland shows up we can remove the worst Eastern state.
1) Holland

Then in the 1560's we remove one more of the Eastern states (which ever is weakest). Then add
1) Largest German state
2) Second largest German state.

 

[unmerged(15967)]

Today we had up to 21 nations in Tsunami with more or less acceptable results. That gives us 3 more spots, right?
So we can either expand the range a bit (HRE?) or add Savoy, Navarra and Serbia or something like that.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Freiherr vStein
Today we had up to 21 nations in Tsunami with more or less acceptable results.

Well, except that Mowers server died

(Sorry, could not resist it )

And from where I was sitting, it was more less than more acceptable results. Lag was frequent and heavy.

 

[artemis667]

Originally posted by Freiherr vStein
Today we had up to 21 nations in Tsunami with more or less acceptable results. That gives us 3 more spots, right?
So we can either expand the range a bit (HRE?) or add Savoy, Navarra and Serbia or something like that.

I was pretty happy with the results with 20 players. I fought a small war in Mali, and there wasn't too much lag - it ranged from a few days to a couple of weeks at the worst points I think. But I don't think pushing the number above what we have now is a good idea. You get diminishing returns by adding new nations, and I don't see minors having much influence on the game at this point. Plus I have a feeling there will be some pretty scary wars in the world over the next three decades, and having too many players will put pressure on some of our connections.

 

[unmerged(11031)]

Art and Peter are right. 18, possibly 19 is enough players which Mowers can cope with.

I think staying Euro-central for the first 100/150 years is a good idea and then slowly expand outwards.

 

[Lord Prime]

So has Tsunami II started or is it still under debate?

 

[Mowers]

Tsunami II hasn’t started yet and will start in around 4 weeks or so when I have done all my real life jobs that have been collected dust etc.

I don’t know if it will be 1419, but with Wyverns BoN game soon that will perhaps give us a greater insight into reality.

 

[Lord Prime]

Ok thanks

 

[TheArchduke]

Originally posted by Mowers
Tsunami II hasn’t started yet and will start in around 4 weeks or so when I have done all my real life jobs that have been collected dust etc.

I don’t know if it will be 1419, but with Wyverns BoN game soon that will perhaps give us a greater insight into reality.

1492, 1492!!! Or we could try out AoR (1520).

 

[Mowers]

You know that I share the same concerns as you do. But we never tried 1419, for the reason that there needed to be more players or a complicated rules set to stop AI abuse. But now with 20+ players why not? We can burn the ‘risky period’ in 1419-1492 in a weekend and if it doesn’t work we haven’t lost so much no?

I know that the 1419 East Med games had a lot of potential, I ran it twice and felt that it was fun. Add on some other countries and we could have an interesting game on our hands.

After wyvern’s BoaN game we ought to be in a better position to understand some of the problems that could potentially arise and be ready to deal with them.

 

[Lord Prime]

I think a 1419 start sounds very interesting. 1492 starts has a lesser number of nations and in 1419 there are still a possibility for another nation then the Ottomans to dominate the eastern mediterranean. Genua since they still have their Crimean possessions intact, i just wish Genua had Greek state culture like Venice does.