Tsunami II - 1419 debate- Potential problems and solutions

[Mowers]

With the success in Tsunami, primarily because the game engine didn’t break and there was little to no silliness, I’m going to run another Tsunami game and I am thinking of running a 1419 scenario.

This does pose some problems. In Tsunami one of clear points was that if you have consistent and competent players at the helm of a country for every session then invariably these countries will do better than the ones that are handed over to the AI the occasional incompetent. So two questions.

If you run the 1419 scenario the big question for me is which powers do you have? Do you run with the 16 usuals…? (Which I believe will just lead to a lot of AI bashing and with an accelerated historical timeline) or do you run with 16 players very tightly compacted into one area? Then over time gradually expand the number of player occupied regions. If this were to happen would there need to be compensation for late entry and what would that compensation be?

The second question is one of historical inheritances. We all know what these events are and they can be predicted. Now no one in his or her right mind is going to chose annexation, but this is largely historical and a method for accounting for this would need to be implemented in advance. I have a number of suggestions.

1) A % dice is rolled using the odds that the AI uses
2) The historical union is then taken and the player with the most powerful country takes the over the new country.

 

[kurtbrian]

I think your suggestion regarding inhertance could make a death struggle between fx Castille and Aragon to be the one that comes out on top as Spain. When in real life they merged relatively peacefully. Another example would be poland - Lithuania.


EDIT: oh, and sign me up for a place in this game...

 

[TheArchduke]

Count me in, although 1419 will make for insane balance issues imo.

My favourite would be someone far off the middle, Muscowy, England, Portugal or Timurids?

 

[unmerged(9404)]

Good idea to start from 1419

Some ideas

In the 1492 startup do you start with nation that are historical annexed? Like Lithauen, Hungary, Bohemia and Mameluks? What do you do with them if they are played? I believe in the Tsunami Lithauen was played and was dropped some years before the union with Poland.
I think this is the way to play the 1419 scenario in order to avoid to big ahistorical things. Thus Burgundy, Aragon, Hungary (maybe Bohemia) and Lithauen played untill their annexation time. Only when a nation is much better than history other things should be considered. Like when Burgundy has conquered most of (or annexed ) France the burgundy inheritance is not really a good idea. I would thus go with yuor option 2.

As for the nations to be played (orientation Western Europe/Meditereanian):
1England
2Bohemia dropped in the 1520s
3Genoa
4Burgundy dropped in the 1470s
5France
6Aragon dropped in the 1510s
7Castille
8Portugal
9Papal States
10Venice
11Austria
12Hungary dropped in the 1520s
13Poland
14Lithauen dropped in the 1560s
15Mameluks
16Ottoman Empire

Possible extras:
Ak konyuli
Algiers
Morocco

Denmark, Sweden and Muscowy are not included as otherwise the Muscowy and OE are left with a lot of room to expand against the ai.
If those nations are included Teutonic Order is also a interesting nation to consider.

 

[unmerged(8303)]

I think this may allow for some interesting play Mowers.

For example:

in EU2 many times for simplicity certain things must be simulated through possession certain political situations that would otherwise not last.

In this game, it will be possible for two people take Castile and Aragon and after the whole Spain incidents. One can take Spain and work on colonizing the new world while Aragon turns its eyes to expanding Spanish domination in Italy against the French. I believe this setup may even increase the striking power of "Spain" slightly.

This will also probably help Poland-Lithuania, even though they're both separate countries though a large part of the GC anyway.

i'd recommend Poland inherit lithuania in 1569 as usual, and Spain and Aragon be merged around 1700. Though events may devour them sooner ( Aragon in 1516 )

If you have 16 the ones I'd recommend for play are:

1. Castile
2. Aragon
3. Muscovy
4. Portugal
5. France
6. Austria
7. Poland
8. Denmark
9. Sweden
10. England
11. Lithuania
12. Aragon
13. Ottoman Empire
14. Timurid Empire->Mughal Empire
15. Novgorod(?)
16. Venice

Also with Aragon and Lithuania checking their bags early, it opens way for Netherlands and (tries to think of another late entry nation but can't)

Also, in all likelyhood Novgorod will check out early as well though it would be interesing to see a skilled fella take Novgorod and make short work of Swedish finland..

I too would be interested in playing, 1419-1820 wow what a game that'd be

 

[unmerged(8303)]

good point. You can't leave Burgundy out. You just can't

It'll make the opening years with the Hundred Years war and all very interesting i think. A real push between powers to see who'll end up on top: The English or the French.

Things will get very ugly if the English are allowed to consume a large chunk of France. I think people know this and we'll see some vicious warfare there.

 

[El Greco]

I think it could be nice to concentrate in the Hundred years war in the beginning, so if England and Burgundy (assuming that humans play them) bash France, players could possibly play French minors to try and help France. It's true that this would create a western-european-centric game but this was the spirit of those days, IMO

I am interested in this game too

 

[unmerged(15967)]

My view on essential players:

1. England, France, Burgundy and Scottland are a must because of the 100YW. The various french miniors are an option.

2. To be able to preserve some BOP several bordering nations are needed, otherwise a somewhat capable England will destroy France in the first war, or failing that France will end the 100YW around 1430. Castile and Aragon are obvious, other possibilities are Savoy, Genova, Helvetia, Navarra or even german miniors. Of these Savoy and Genova have some long-term potential.

3. The OE can't possibly be left for the AI since it fails to become a serious power far to often. To counter excessive OE expansion Venice Hungary and the mameluks should be player nations. With Venice and Hungary included Austria, Poland or Lithunia and Bohemia are worthy additions.

My suggesttion:

1419:
England, Scotland, France, Burgundy, Brittany, Bourbonaise, Provance, Castile, Aragon, Genova or Savoy, Ottoman Empire, Venice, Hungary, Austria, Poland or Lithunia, one of the nations of the Hanseatic League (should be made alliance leader).

After the annexion of Constantinople: One of the french miniors swiches to Mameluks.

After the end of the 100YW: The remaining frech miniors, Scotland and Savoy/Genova, eventually Burgundy, all depending on the exact situation, switch to Denmark, Sweden, Muscovy or Novgorod (depending on who is stronger, probably Muscovy), maybe Timurids or Golden horde. A HRE minior is another possibility.

A human Bavaria from the start would be very nice so Bavaria stays independant for once, but the other positions all seem more important to me.

 

[Swuul]

I want to be in Tsunami 2 too And I'd like to play the Ottomans (I have run the Otto's now for some 150 years in Tsunami 1, and there are a lot of things I'd like to have been done differently...).

Would there possibly be possible to set up teams of players? So that the game could theoretically run for 48 hours every weekend. That way the TZC (time-zone-challenged <grin>) americans and australians would have a better chance too to participiate.

If there was a team of players they could plan together what they intend to do and then decide amongst them who plays and when. That way there would also be a bit of variation on national actions, altough the team-members would have better defined objectives.

Now the subs get bashed (yes I know, I was subbing first as Venice and Tuscany and got my a$$ handed to me on a plate o both occasions, as Otto's I've done the same to subbing Russia-ruler and Persia-ruler) because they have to get familiar in with the situation in seconds flat: realize the political situation, where the nation stands and where it is going etc. With a "defined" team such problems would be much less harassing.

It doesn't mean thease teams would have to be very strict, but it would help if 1-2 people would be actively backing-up one player. For those players who never miss a session that wouldn't be a problem, but for others it could be a blessing (for example I know I'll be at work next Saturday from 12:00 GMT, and would really like to work out the strategies with someone subbing me as the Otto's after I leave).

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Heh, i expect a lot of funny stuff in 1419. Its very easy to crash and burn in that scenario in MP

 

[Mowers]

I thought Freiherr vStein’s ideas were the best, the regional setup is the only way to go. I would go with that setup suggested and move selection he suggests as well. I particularly like the idea of concentrating in the West and the Mediterrean and then having a move to the East. What we could do is have the best “french” player take over France at the end of the 100 years war and change French stats to the ‘winning french power’. There might need to be some no attacking certain country rulings and some tech balances in 1492.

I think Jarkko Suvinen has a good idea. A solution is that the first part of the game just runs 1419-1492 in just one session. Players could nominate North Americans that they wanted to take over from them when they couldn’t take any more and I’ll just munch caffeine tablets get increasingly irritable with everyone.

 

[Wyvern]

Regarding inheritence rules, I'd like to see something along the following lines implemented:-

If a country is about the same or weaker than it was historically then it gets inherited.

If it is stronger, then the player has the option to remain independent.

That way we could see an independent Burgundy for example past 1570 if they can prove themselves capable of surviving - I'd quite relish the idea of playing Burgundy .

I agree with those who have said initial action should start in the west and be especially consentrated around the 100YW. Moscowy and OE areas can be brought in later as countries in the west either become irrelevant or are overrun.

 

[Owen]

I think that introduces all sorts of problems. Specifically, England and other nations will feed up Burgundy, French minors, Aragon, Bohemia, Hungary and Novgorod to keep the major nations who get all the interesting leaders and events permanently weakened. I don't see any way of avoiding this.

 

[Loke]

1419

This ought to be very fun... Signing up for Mamelukes, regardless of rules that are decided upon...

;-)

 

[unmerged(15967)]

I think the inheritances should be historical. We could toss a coin about who gets to continue as the joined nation, though. It might be fun to see Provence inherit france in 1451 if the 100YW isn't resolved yet and Provence is still player nation

 

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by Freiherr vStein
I think the inheritances should be historical. We could toss a coin about who gets to continue as the joined nation, though. It might be fun to see Provence inherit france in 1451 if the 100YW isn't resolved yet and Provence is still player nation

It's only my opinion, but I consider one of the major plusses to starting from 1419 is for more interesting and different things to happen than what we are used to seeing in a 1492 campaign and an independent Burgundy for example should be at least a possibily.

I do wonder though whether a 1419 start will really work out and be more fun than a 1492 campaign.

 

[Johan]

A 1419 game which at 1492 ends up exactly like history would not be any fun.

If a vital Burgundy exists, or Austria is reduced to a 5th rate minor, it would be fun.. As long as not too many changes have occurred.

 

[Doomfarer]

One problem with the 1419 scenario is that the Timurids will become totally nuked when they get their dissintegration event. Every neighbour will take advantage of it I guess. So some special rule would probably be needed here.

The same goes for the Golden Horde, but shey really should disappear on the other hand.

 

[unmerged(10915)]

This sounds like a new and fun experience and hell yes im in .
Would probably like some country in the Hundred Year War stage, not the big ones, perhaps Scotland or Aragon. (Those are the ones i like the most ).

 

[RedPhoenix]

Originally posted by Johan
A 1419 game which at 1492 ends up exactly like history would not be any fun.

If a vital Burgundy exists, or Austria is reduced to a 5th rate minor, it would be fun.. As long as not too many changes have occurred.

I agree burgundy would never have been inherited by austria and later spain, if they were in a stronger position. They only were inherited by austria because they were too weak to defend them selves alone, were this to change I don't think burgundy needs to ever be inherited.

Countries that were inherited regardless, like Lithuania, should be however still be inherited. In these cases we can do the die roll like was suggested. Stronger player takes control of the forming nation. And I think it will be cool that there is a bit rivalry in aragon and Castile, they did have some fights in history too didn't they?