Trying to play Yeren: Is the AI biased against humans?

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PhroX

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OK, so, I felt like playing a game as Yeren (the green nation in Manchuria) after having a couple of "colonial conquest FTW!!!" endings to my attempts at playing new world nations. Why? Well, they're kinda cool, having the option to reform to Muslim tech while everyone else around them has Chinese (and you've got -10% tech costs too), and when westernising, you can switch to Christian if you like. So some fun options, and I had a really fun game with them immediately after AoW came out, so I was hoping for another. I expect a relatively hard start - no potential for allies, as everyone who could potentially help you borders you (thus rivals you ASAP), or Ming, and thus simply doesn't care, but after several attempts to get started, I'm really getting frustrated. If I get a very early DoW from all four of my neighbours, fine, that's bad luck and I'm going to have to restart. But three times, I've had the following:

Jianzhou declared war on me a couple of years in. They have a slightly larger army and more manpower and attacking anywhere in Manchira is tough due to defensive terrain bonuses everywhere, so instead of engaging them directly, I scorch earth on the provinces they're attacking, and sit back and wait. A couple of years later, they have no manpower, their army is shrinking and they've had to start mass buying mercs (likely crashing their economy). They have occupied a couple of provinces, but I've got an intact army and a full manpower pool, plus a bit of cash, so I'm in an excellent position to counterattack and win the war.

Haixi of course, has been watching it two rivals fight it out. Eventually, they decide they want a piece of the pie and declare war on....well, lets have a look.

Option 1, Jianzhou has more valuable, same religion provinces, no manpower, and a shrunken, predominantly mercenary army.

Option 2, Yeren, has poorer, wrong religion provinces, a full manpower pool, and an intact army. Oh, and their army is lead by a better general.

So, who do they attack? Well the fact that I'm complaining here makes it pretty obvious, they chose Option 2. And I can't for the life of me figure out why. We're both rivals, so there shouldn't be any diplomatic bias one way or other. We're all hordes so there's CBs all round. Jianzhou is far weaker at the present, though has a greater potential strength when not worn down by war, thus making this the perfect time to attack them. Their provinces are worth more and are easier to integrate. It's a simpler, less costly conquest that will result in greater rewards. It's pretty much a no brainer. And yet in almost identical situations, three times in a row, Haixi declared war on me, not Jianzhou. Why? Seriously, why?

I don't think it's the case, but it almost seems that the AI is biased against me for being a human player.
 

solidprice

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Please almighty horde god TheMeInTeam, pleas give us advice on how to become a Muslim tech, possibly Christian QING!:(

but yeah I had to cheat to test the Theroical possibly.
And Its doable legit, but it's as tough as A Russian Vassal Forming Russia/Byzantium.
When I saw how cool it was, it was awesome.

I wish I could do it legit. :(
 
Last edited:

FloatingOrb

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In my experience AI's are more likely to tackle ais than players. This is from the peaceful games ive played (things like peaceful portugal, etc) where there is little to do beside watch the ais have fun. Side note, purely peaceful games are boring for 300+ years are boring. Anyway, who ais attack is based on not only strength but opinion, mission goals, and alliances. I am sure you've seen leige ally austria in the early game and try to take on burgundy before, it never ends well for the little opm.

Furthermore, i dont think ais really consider the tax base of a province, aside from how it affects overextension. They do seem to prioritize provinces with trade bonuses (not confirmed) but other than that its all land to them. THey dont even seem to care about coastal provinces. As for religion and culture, if they are conquering i dont think they care, if you are selling they care a lot.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Please almighty horde god TheMeInTeam, pleas give us advice on how to become a Muslim tech, possibly Christian QING!:(

but yeah I had to cheat to test the Theroical possibly. Its doable, and it was awesome.

I wish I could do it legit. :(

I'd forgotten about that lol. I recall suggesting that you form Manchu (which forces switch to Confucian) while the westernization event to turn Christian is up, so you can still accept it. So you tested and that works eh? Doesn't surprise me (you can swap Hindu deities this way too).

@ OP:

While the logic in doing so escapes me, the AI loves dogpiling on Yeren instantly regardless of whether a human is behind the wheel on that nation. The AI won't do it of course, but a human can full annex --> release Yeren into Confucian anyway and Shamanist is not difficult to convert.

This means you'll basically have to plan to defeat multiple hordes at once right at the start. I do that as Mongolia often, but at least for Yeren you're not staring down "Esen Taichi" and his 5 shock while taking a 3 stab hit just to start a war (Mongolia typically must fight Buryatia, Korchin, and Oirat simultaneously, quickly defeating the other 2 while Oirat is attacking someone). The forest terrain Yeren has is really annoying though. I haven't tested attrition up there much this patch, but it's going to be a bumpy ride at first for certain.

IMO the most amusing option is to stay shamanist :p. Absent that, taking the divination decision and then reforming before making Manchu (which forces Confucian) is interesting, because you can indeed turn Christian with westernization event if you time it properly. What a bear to set up all the ideas you need though (you will need exploration, a reform group like administrative at minimum, but then you're surrounded by heathen territory without any meaningful conversion strength boosts). TBH I'd rather just take that divination for the -1 unrest and go ahead and be Confucian with humanist. With neoconfucianism and the base tolerance you're already at +2 heretic tolerance (3 at 100 legitimacy) so you can freely conquer Buddhist stuff, and with humanist you have +1 tolerance of heathens, -3 unrest from shamanist decision + idea group, and whatever you're getting from stability/legitimacy. It's not the most EXCITING play, but you can basically ignore religion forever then.
 

Aminti

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Please almighty horde god TheMeInTeam, pleas give us advice on how to become a Muslim tech, possibly Christian QING!:(

but yeah I had to cheat to test the Theroical possibly.
And Its doable legit, but it's as tough as A Russian Vassal Forming Russia/Byzantium.
When I saw how cool it was, it was awesome.

I wish I could do it legit. :(

Ally Korea day 1 (50-50 chance of them not auto-rivaling you), use their strength as leverage against whichever horde you want to attack first (though I suggest a cautious approach - who blinks first?) and then you're golden in Manchuria. Taking on Ming is a different story entirely, though.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Ally Korea day 1 (50-50 chance of them not auto-rivaling you), use their strength as leverage against whichever horde you want to attack first (though I suggest a cautious approach - who blinks first?) and then you're golden in Manchuria. Taking on Ming is a different story entirely, though.

Ming donates all the money you need to defeat Ming. As a horde it's even more true and they're an easily winnable war. If you can unite the Manchus and defeat Oirat once they lost shock 5 (or ally Oirat and bring them on Ming, either/or) Ming is a cinch.
 

PhroX

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I've never been able to get Korea as an ally as Yeren (it's easy as the other Manchurian tribes), and, yeah, I mean, I'm sure beating them all is certainly possible, I'm just not good enough at this game to do so unless I get very lucky (like rolling a 4 shock king on day 1) :p

I'm not worried about Ming in the long run if I do get past the start, unless they pile on to me mid war or something, as, as TMIT says, they're pretty easy. Looting, particularly as a horde, leads to them funding your massive mercenary army that's kicking their ass. These days, even if you don't achieve a total victory, even just getting their WE up a bit is often enough to trigged their breakup.

But more than my incompetence being revealed to the world, I'm really just trying to understand why the AI would chose to attack me rather than Jianzhou in that situation.

As an aside, I'm pretty sure the terrain in Manchuria has gotten more mountainous since I played there in 1.7....
 

TheMeInTeam

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Yeah, I mean, I'm sure beating them all is certainly possible, I'm just not good enough at this game to do so unless I get very lucky (like rolling a 4 shock king on day 1) :p

But more than my incompetence being revealed to the world, I'm really just trying to understand why the AI would chose to attack me rather than Jianzhou in that situation.

As an aside, I'm pretty sure the terrain in Manchuria has gotten more mountainous since I played there in 1.7....

I thought rather than mountains that the issue is "everything is a river crossing, and I hope you like forests". It's not a mountain, but it's still a -2.

I THINK the reason Yeren is constantly targeted first is how the default rivals + friendlies shake out. Yeren has a hard time finding alliances in time so they are the weakest-seeming of the bunch.
 

Aminti

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Ming donates all the money you need to defeat Ming. As a horde it's even more true and they're an easily winnable war. If you can unite the Manchus and defeat Oirat once they lost shock 5 (or ally Oirat and bring them on Ming, either/or) Ming is a cinch.

How easy or hard Ming is depends entirely on how fast they break. Of all the 1,9 games I played, that one was the one where they kept Mandate for 120+ years. I'm also a fairly cautious player, so being wary of Ming came naturally for me (also: I had excellent expansion opportunities into Japan and Oirat territory, so why bother with the giant next door.)
 

PhroX

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I thought rather than mountains that the issue is "everything is a river crossing, and I hope you like forests". It's not a mountain, but it's still a -2.

I THINK the reason Yeren is constantly targeted first is how the default rivals + friendlies shake out. Yeren has a hard time finding alliances in time so they are the weakest-seeming of the bunch.

The southern parts are forests. Up north in Yeren it's mountains and rivers. Oh the joys of -3 to your rolls before you even start ;)

If it was an immediate DoW, I could understand that, as they are indeed an easy target, but in the cases I'm complaining about here it's not. Jianzhou has attacked me reasonably early, but in each of these three cases, Haixi waited several years to a point where Jianzhou had no allies and had crippled their nation trying to attack me, and yet chose to attack me rather than JZ.
 

MeatPirate

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How easy or hard Ming is depends entirely on how fast they break. Of all the 1,9 games I played, that one was the one where they kept Mandate for 120+ years. I'm also a fairly cautious player, so being wary of Ming came naturally for me (also: I had excellent expansion opportunities into Japan and Oirat territory, so why bother with the giant next door.)

It's actually less of a headache if they stay together. It's not hard to beat them, but it depends on your micro and maneuver. As TMIT said, they fund your war by running around looting everything. Their stack will chase you constantly taking attrition because, well, AI. A couple years later you are filthy rich and they have no manpower. Pump mercs, stackwipe, and you won. Keep looting them while you seige.
 

TheMeInTeam

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The southern parts are forests. Up north in Yeren it's mountains and rivers. Oh the joys of -3 to your rolls before you even start ;)

If it was an immediate DoW, I could understand that, as they are indeed an easy target, but in the cases I'm complaining about here it's not. Jianzhou has attacked me reasonably early, but in each of these three cases, Haixi waited several years to a point where Jianzhou had no allies and had crippled their nation trying to attack me, and yet chose to attack me rather than JZ.

That's odd then. The only other thing I can think of is that the initial mission presented targets Yeren.
 

PhroX

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The one time I checked, they just had the general "unite the Jurchen tribes", which again, should make them want to attack both me and Jianzhou.
 

Thrake

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I formed Qing in hard AI/AI bonuses, so it's definately doable. Basically indeed, everyone gangs on you at start, I guess it's because you're wrong religion and the AI hates that. Whatever, this happen no matter what.

From there, I know it's quite heartbreaking, but the only thing you will want from the 1st war is a white peace; you'll likely get another DOW before it ends anyway... Just don't let them occupy stuff; you can make them lift sieges by attacking weaker stacks if they happen to split. When the other guy DOWs, well, just leave the other horde be, it should start having a rather low war enthusiasm and WS in your favor, so just let length of war tick down and get a white peace ASAP. In the mean time, start spanking the 2nd horde. You'll likely get a DOW from the 3rd horde sooner or later, so here again, you should play it safe, and save manpower, so defensive and breaking sieges with ticking WS for you in mind. If you don't get another DOW, carpet once you get a chance, and claim wathever you could, or white peace when you get a DOW (with in mind to ask for some WS from the 3rd war, though I wouldn't push it too much; you'll want Korea as ally and you don't want too much AE before allying them).

Once the 1st war is done, secure alliance with Korea and you're quite safe. Just conquer your way through the hordes (they will be weakened by the war against you so they will start fighting one another; just jump at any opportunity) and later, you and Korea will have the strength to deal with Ming.
 

Freudia

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I'd forgotten about that lol. I recall suggesting that you form Manchu (which forces switch to Confucian) while the westernization event to turn Christian is up, so you can still accept it.

Does this actually work? Because that's pretty cool if it does, and definitely something that tickles my fancy on 'things I'd like to do in this game at some point.'
 

Evanescent

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Relations perhaps had a factor? Or if you are really curious, you can use console command aiview and see where their priorities are placed.