Trying to improve my blobbing game

[dolgion]

I would say I'm an intermediate CK2 player. I've put in some 170 hours at this point, exclusively playing as Catholic feudal rulers so far. I've been really enjoying my time, but I feel like I'm missing something in my play style.
I know that there are many different ways to approach the game, but here I'm strictly talking about painting the map or acquisition of territory.

I play with all major DLC's enabled except Sunset Invasion and I don't have Conclave. My problem is that I find myself always doing the same basic things every campaign I'm on, which are as follows:

1. Make sure all my vassals have positive opinion of me. I send gifts, give out minor titles (though council seats are earned on merit alone), and so forth.
2. Set a reasonably reachable goal for expansion (become de jure King of England for example when I'm King of Jorvik) and fabricate claims or incorporate claimants into my realm to gain cassus belli.
3. Unfavorable characters in my realm that have no hope of ever liking me are assassinated as a last resort.
4. I educate my best children myself.
5. When choosing a spouse I primarily look for great traits (genius, strong, etc) or good alliances.
6. I push for elective succession law as soon as I can.
7. I constantly look for weak neighbors to wage war on. (those with few or no allies, fewer troops than me)
8. When no fabricating, my chancellor goes improving relations with the vassals that dislike me most.
9. Prepare for succession when I'm very old by hoarding as much coin as I can spare, especially if it looks like it will be rough (i.e. my best heir died and now I'm left with a 9 year old).
10. Try to improve relations with my bishops as much as possible for further income.
11. I develop my main holdings very rarely, and the castle town upgrades before any others.
12. I marry off all my family members for alliance purposes to big powers.

While this style has been mostly solid for me, it's also quite boring and I feel like I could be more effective, though I can't think of how. I know I could just go for a roleplay style or try out the different types of rulers like Republics or Pagans, but I'm saving those for the future.

Tl;dr: Please give some more advanced advice how to min-max the game for sustainable expansion. I'm not trying to just be emperor for one generation and fall apart right after. What am I missing out on in terms of opportunities? Or are the things I listed above suboptimal?

 

[BD13]

11. I tend to develop my holdings instead of giving out gifts. I max out a good duchy and build retinues after that. Once you are maxed and have your max retinue (more luxury than necessity) you are almost untouchable You can encourage civil war to increase your power. You will almost always win and then you can ransom characters for money and strip titles from rulers you do not like. Strip titles after they give you their gold since you can freely revoke a traitors title.

If you truly want to blob you could embrace a heresy and holy war everyone into the ground. Once you take over all the territory of your former religion you can flip back and continue to holy war the rest of the world.

 

[szmik]

I don't bother with vassals who dislike me, I wait for them to start plotting, plot revoke myself if possible and encourage them to revolt (court jester them), so I can imprison for free, revoke and throw in oubliette.
If I have rival courtiers, I bury them in some barony/county not in my domesne, preferably giving them a backwater city after winning holy war.

I don't have much experience with cathlic expansion (poor CBs). You could try out nomads for that, it's real rollercoaster initially (could take 200 years if unlucky).

 

[Teonod]

Create an anti-pope, enforce his claim to the papacy, now the Pope is your vassal. For 100 piety he will give you a claim on any catholic duchy, it will give you -30 opinion every time you do it, but he will never deny his liege.

 

[Tapio]

If you don't develop your holdings, you're going to reach your limits quite fast. Focusing on economy is good, but how will you defend your lands if your military is weak?

After you've got your economy up and decent amount of troops from your demesne start building up a retinue. Those will also help you keep vassals in line.

 

[Bernard95]

If you're Catholic then you'll either want the Pope as your vassal or you'll want to convert to a Catholic heresy (ideally Fraticelli since you're a clone of Catholicism that can then holy war and Crusade Catholics after creating the Fraticelli Papacy) or something else entirely that's built for conquest. Anything Islamic is very OP as long as you remember to never land anyone, but if you're still worried about decadence then play as an Islamic Merchant Republic (start as a tribe if need be) or Horde which are decadence free. Otherwise, you had the right idea with playing one of the two feudal pagans, Jorvik.

Beyond that if you're Christian then don't underestimate the power of the marriage and inheritance game. Sometimes all you need is some random daughter, cousin or uncle with a weak claim and then you can press for a whole kingdom.

 

[Aries666]

I would say I'm an intermediate CK2 player. I've put in some 170 hours at this point, exclusively playing as Catholic feudal rulers so far. I've been really enjoying my time, but I feel like I'm missing something in my play style.
I know that there are many different ways to approach the game, but here I'm strictly talking about painting the map or acquisition of territory.

I play with all major DLC's enabled except Sunset Invasion and I don't have Conclave. My problem is that I find myself always doing the same basic things every campaign I'm on, which are as follows:

1. Make sure all my vassals have positive opinion of me. I send gifts, give out minor titles (though council seats are earned on merit alone), and so forth.
2. Set a reasonably reachable goal for expansion (become de jure King of England for example when I'm King of Jorvik) and fabricate claims or incorporate claimants into my realm to gain cassus belli.
3. Unfavorable characters in my realm that have no hope of ever liking me are assassinated as a last resort.
4. I educate my best children myself.
5. When choosing a spouse I primarily look for great traits (genius, strong, etc) or good alliances.
6. I push for elective succession law as soon as I can.
7. I constantly look for weak neighbors to wage war on. (those with few or no allies, fewer troops than me)
8. When no fabricating, my chancellor goes improving relations with the vassals that dislike me most.
9. Prepare for succession when I'm very old by hoarding as much coin as I can spare, especially if it looks like it will be rough (i.e. my best heir died and now I'm left with a 9 year old).
10. Try to improve relations with my bishops as much as possible for further income.
11. I develop my main holdings very rarely, and the castle town upgrades before any others.
12. I marry off all my family members for alliance purposes to big powers.

While this style has been mostly solid for me, it's also quite boring and I feel like I could be more effective, though I can't think of how. I know I could just go for a roleplay style or try out the different types of rulers like Republics or Pagans, but I'm saving those for the future.

Tl;dr: Please give some more advanced advice how to min-max the game for sustainable expansion. I'm not trying to just be emperor for one generation and fall apart right after. What am I missing out on in terms of opportunities? Or are the things I listed above suboptimal?

Just my two cents worth:
1. Only give gifts if doing so will take them out of a faction, otherwise this is cash better spent on your holdings
2. Always keep an eye out for unmarried females rulers and marry them to you or a member of you dynasty making it much easier to grab that land later. Get into a position near heathens for rapid holy wars, always holy war heretics as they pop up.
3. Probably not worth doing as you risk becoming a known murderer for little/no gain or worse kin slayer.
5. This can be flexible I will take a crappy wife if she holds lots of titles/claims that our children can inherit, if my character is no very good getting a very good wife can offset that a little
8. Fabricated claims should really be a last resort, I would even press my vassals fabricated claims before fabricating any of my own
11. You really should develop your holdings as this + your retinue are your most reliable troops and the greater the size of the two the lower the chance of serious factions forming and firing.
12. Marrying for alliances is fine if they are needed but marrying for claims and titles is better.

As a side note, if you are looking for truly fast blobbing then getting into a position for holy wars is really the way to go.

 

[Jonathan Palfrey]

As szmik commented, I don't worry about vassals disliking me as long as I'm strong enough to crush revolts. A revolt is actually useful because it allows me to revoke the titles of the defeated rebels. I can then keep the titles I like best myself, and give out the ones I don't want to favoured courtiers. It enables me to reorganize my demesne.

 

[dolgion]

Thanks for the guidance, keep 'em coming!
So the most general tips I could easily implement are:

1. I shouldn't worry about vassal's opinion, sometimes having them revolt can be advantageous (revoking their title)
2. Instead of hoarding money for giving out gifts, it's better to spend it on developing my holding
3. Look for female rulers as a good way to inject claims into my dynasty, also marry off family members to people with claims
4. Retinues are important to maintain for military strength

I did look into getting a retinue, but right now (year ~1070) with military organisation at level 3 (I think), I'm able to have a retinue of around ~1000 troops. That's kind of low, isn't it? My vassals alone have a military of 8000, my own demesne gets me around 3000. Considering how maintaining the retinue eats into my monthly income, I thought it's not really that big an advantage. I'm usually more inclined to always keep money around to call upon mercenaries when things turn ugly. Or is it connected to my relatively underdeveloped holdings?

The point about not worrying about vassal opinion is pretty counter intuitive for me, so that's very interesting.

Holy wars sound great fun and all, but where I am (British Isles) there isn't much going on in the way of religious conflict. Or am I not thinking big enough? Is it worth starting wars overseas (in Iberian peninsula maybe)? The Umayyad's have basically conquered the whole of the peninsula at this point. Or should I consider Scandinavia?

 

[soondragon67]

When aiming for a title, look through the title's claimants and invite anyone who has a strong claim(if any) and then give them a title. You will then be able to press that claim and keep them as your vassal(as long as you aim for a title that is lower than your own obviously). This is far quicker than playing the marriage game, and can allow you to conquer multiple kingdoms in a single decade, assuming you can handle the defensive pacts that will form as a result.

 

[Jonathan Palfrey]

A couple of people have recommended converting to a heresy, which you have the opportunity to do whenever your chaplain turns heretic (instead of imprisoning him, which is the other option). However, I don't see how this works out in practice. It means you can suddenly holy-war all your neighbours; but they can suddenly do the same to you, so you're saying, "Hey guys, come and get me!"

Inviting someone with a strong claim is a fine idea, if you can find someone with such a claim who's willing to be invited. I've been looking through claimants for a long time in my current game, and haven't found anyone suitable. Almost all claimants have weak claims, which are normally useless. The search is getting rather tedious.

Although I still maintain a retinue myself, I agree with dolgion that retinues represent questionable value for money, now that they're (a) less strong and (b) much more expensive than they used to be. I doubt that they really make a lot of difference.

 

[Dragatus]

Thanks for the guidance, keep 'em coming!
So the most general tips I could easily implement are:

1. I shouldn't worry about vassal's opinion, sometimes having them revolt can be advantageous (revoking their title)
2. Instead of hoarding money for giving out gifts, it's better to spend it on developing my holding
3. Look for female rulers as a good way to inject claims into my dynasty, also marry off family members to people with claims
4. Retinues are important to maintain for military strength

I did look into getting a retinue, but right now (year ~1070) with military organisation at level 3 (I think), I'm able to have a retinue of around ~1000 troops. That's kind of low, isn't it? My vassals alone have a military of 8000, my own demesne gets me around 3000. Considering how maintaining the retinue eats into my monthly income, I thought it's not really that big an advantage. I'm usually more inclined to always keep money around to call upon mercenaries when things turn ugly. Or is it connected to my relatively underdeveloped holdings?

The point about not worrying about vassal opinion is pretty counter intuitive for me, so that's very interesting.

Holy wars sound great fun and all, but where I am (British Isles) there isn't much going on in the way of religious conflict. Or am I not thinking big enough? Is it worth starting wars overseas (in Iberian peninsula maybe)? The Umayyad's have basically conquered the whole of the peninsula at this point. Or should I consider Scandinavia?

Retinues are actually limited more by your income than by the retinue cap. A reinforcing retinue will cost you about as much as the same number of mercenary troops (the cost may not be exactly the same, but it's comparable), but a retinue at full strength only has 10% of the normal monthly cost. A retinue that is not reinforcing is also cheaper that having your personal levies raised. And unlike mercenaries you have full control over the composition.

There are two ways to approach retinues. You can either build them for fighting in which case the standard recommendation is Pikemen. Or you can build them to intimidate your vassals (by making their faction look weaker) in which case the recommendation is Light Infantry.

A couple of people have recommended converting to a heresy, which you have the opportunity to do whenever your chaplain turns heretic (instead of imprisoning him, which is the other option). However, I don't see how this works out in practice. It means you can suddenly holy-war all your neighbours; but they can suddenly do the same to you, so you're saying, "Hey guys, come and get me!"

Inviting someone with a strong claim is a fine idea, if you can find someone with such a claim who's willing to be invited. I've been looking through claimants for a long time in my current game, and haven't found anyone suitable. Almost all claimants have weak claims, which are normally useless. The search is getting rather tedious.

Although I still maintain a retinue myself, I agree with dolgion that retinues represent questionable value for money, now that they're (a) less strong and (b) much more expensive than they used to be. I doubt that they really make a lot of difference.

The idea is to convert to a heresy once you've blobbed enough that you can beat down anyone trying to wage any sort of holy war against you. If you do it as a 2 province duke, you're just asking for trouble.

Yes, inviting people with strong claim is hard. That's why it's important to snag those that actually are willing to join your court.

 

[dolgion]

Embracing the heresy sounds fun, but maybe that's a bit too exploitative for me. Or maybe not. I'm currently not starved for valid casus belli as I just usurped the title for King of England (yay!). I'll keep it in mind though, I hadn't thought of that possibility.

 

[Aries666]

It looks like your vassals are so strong relative to you because you have been giving them money which they have been investing. There are two solid approaches for building a solid demesne. The first is to train for midas touch and hold two full duckies, in England you would want middlesex and Kent, this will make you rich and allow you to upgrade fast. The second is to train for brilliant strategist and hold one very strong duchy with a 5-6holding capital. Fill out your cap with castles and place your marshal and steward there and you get an insane bonus to levy and income, you can easily get over 10k from one county. I personally like to start with the first and move to the second later in the game. On retinue I find early on an all light inf is best as it makes you look more powerful vs your vassals, eventually you will have to scrap it for something that is actually effective in combat.

The reason for all this advice, the stronger you are vs your vassals the less time you spend worrying about factions and the more time you can blob.

Lastly if you want to position near other religions so you can holy way that is definitely worth fabricating a claim for.

 

[Jonathan Palfrey]

The idea is to convert to a heresy once you've blobbed enough that you can beat down anyone trying to wage any sort of holy war against you. If you do it as a 2 province duke, you're just asking for trouble.

If you're so strong that you can beat off an attack by two or three of your larger neighbours, the game has already become pointless; you may as well quit and start another game.

 

[Aries666]

If you're so strong that you can beat off an attack by two or three of your larger neighbours, the game has already become pointless; you may as well quit and start another game.

That's not really the case if like the OP you are specifically looking to map paint.

 

[Jonathan Palfrey]

That's not really the case if like the OP you are specifically looking to map paint.

OK, I was speaking from my own personal point of view. But, whoever you are, getting that strong will take you most of the game (unless you start as the Kaiser), and until you get that strong you'll need some other strategy than going heretic.

 

[soondragon67]

But, whoever you are, getting that strong will take you most of the game

I disagree. If you play your cards right you can get to that point in about a hundred years.

 

[Aries666]

OK, I was speaking from my own personal point of view. But, whoever you are, getting that strong will take you most of the game (unless you start as the Kaiser), and until you get that strong you'll need some other strategy than going heretic.

Not really considering you can, and indeed there is an achievement for going from count to emperor in one generation. Granted it easier to do in the way I did by starting as a count in the Byzantine empire but I have also done it in two generations starting as Lithuania and Norse. Blobbing rapidly is most difficult with Catholic nations who have no holy war options. The quickest way to an empire title starting in England is probably to fabricate on a county in Asturias then just Holy war right through the Iberian peninsula. The other easy one would be to form Scandinavia except you need to be careful with troop movement due to pagan penalty.

 

[BD13]

OK, I was speaking from my own personal point of view. But, whoever you are, getting that strong will take you most of the game (unless you start as the Kaiser), and until you get that strong you'll need some other strategy than going heretic.

It depends. 1066 start would be tougher to embrace a heresy yet it would be much easier in the CM start. Usually once Charlie dies everything he owned implodes. Catholic moral authority follows. You wouldn't have many real threats to worry about. Especially if you are on the British isles.

Side note about retinues. I think it's best to build them after you upgrade your holdings and have spare money with nothing to invest in.

Always set your retinues to "not reinforce" if they are holding a siege unless their numbers have been depleted recently.

Edit: Another note. The tributary CB is very useful early game. Tributaries will give you more money then vassals with low feudal taxes. Also they provide their whole levy when called into war.

Don't need to worry about keeping them happy and can use their money to build up your holdings and their levies to win your wars. You can easily turn most of the British isles into tributaries.

The only downside is that you cant press claims against them until your current ruler dies. Need to choose tributes carefully.