Trying to form Italy as Naples

[WilburS]

I seem to do fine most of the time until I get close to the goal when I get roflstomped by whole Europe except for France who usually stands by me till the bitter end

Two nights ago I actually got to the point where I had all the provinces and was coring the last one Lombardia when I got DOWed and everybody joined in. Lombardia was occupied when the coring process was at 95% or something like that. I lost some of the key provinces and ragequit at that point

I know the problem with my last few games has been the fact that I annexed Rome too early which people seem to frown upon pretty badly. The latest tactic that I think I'll try is to get economic and quantity first and hence increase my force limit by using the policy they allow (don't remember the name, but it gives you +50% force limit). I seem to struggle because I can't afford a big enough army with a lowish force limit. Either I need a shit load of money or a bigger force limit. Or both

Any tips will be appreciated.

 

[dullum]

It looks like all the provinces you need to form Italy are in the Empire, so I'd take it slowly. Is Rome in the Empire? Try getting some of Venice's lands, so you can get all those sweet trade ducats first. Then you can try to either fight Aragon or the Balkans to get more trade money. Honestly, I have no ideas, except for buddying up to France or the emperor. That should keep you safe while you do your thing.

 

[WilburS]

Yeah I think you're right that I should focus on taking some other land than the Emperor's first. That has probably been my downfall. Rome and Urbino's province (Ancona?) are not in the Empire so they should probably be taken first. Usually Aragon loses me as their vassal before I even DOW them, but if they don't I start by taking a province of two from them.
Luckily I seem to always be able to always ally France sooner or later so that will help me win most of the wars. The problem is when France refuses to join a defensive war or makes a separate peace too quickly and I'm on my own. My army just isn't strong/big enough to fight 4-5+ nations at the same time.

 

[Freudia]

If you aren't doing so, Naples can join the empire with its starting size. It takes something like 192 relations to do so, but it's feasible and definitely worth it. I would also ally both Austria and France on the same day (to skirt past the great power allies modifier) which should give you what you need to get everything with rather smooth sailing.

 

[WilburS]

If you aren't doing so, Naples can join the empire with its starting size. It takes something like 192 relations to do so, but it's feasible and definitely worth it. I would also ally both Austria and France on the same day (to skirt past the great power allies modifier) which should give you what you need to get everything with rather smooth sailing.

I haven't played in the Empire so I don't really know the mechanics. How come I'm allowed to join when none of my provinces are within the Empire?

Good tip about allying on the same day. I didn't know that.

 

[Freudia]

I haven't played in the Empire so I don't really know the mechanics. How come I'm allowed to join when none of my provinces are within the Empire?

Because you border the empire. Your capital, Napoli, borders Siena, a province of the empire, by sea tile. This, combined with your size (base tax, not province count) lets you join if you get very high relations with the emperor.

 

[Santoes]

I seem to do fine most of the time until I get close to the goal when I get roflstomped by whole Europe except for France who usually stands by me till the bitter end

Two nights ago I actually got to the point where I had all the provinces and was coring the last one Lombardia when I got DOWed and everybody joined in. Lombardia was occupied when the coring process was at 95% or something like that. I lost some of the key provinces and ragequit at that point

I know the problem with my last few games has been the fact that I annexed Rome too early which people seem to frown upon pretty badly. The latest tactic that I think I'll try is to get economic and quantity first and hence increase my force limit by using the policy they allow (don't remember the name, but it gives you +50% force limit). I seem to struggle because I can't afford a big enough army with a lowish force limit. Either I need a shit load of money or a bigger force limit. Or both

Any tips will be appreciated.

It's hard to give any tips when your start is hindered by the PU. One thing you can do with the Naples start is reduce military maintenance until you are ready to fight for your independence, or you get lucky and it ends. With the money I'd build temples as they can increase your force limit by 1 for every 4 tax you make a year.

Long term you could try to join the hre. You'd have to not take lands from Aragon, have them release Sicily, take Ancona, and you'd possibly have to sell the toe of the boot to Sicily.

If you get Sardinia you can go after Tunisia. Religious idea would help to be able to take what you want, as you could release Tripoli, Kablyia, or Algiers after you conquer there land, and start feeding them.

When you take an hre land make sure you wait long enough for the penalties to go away. Venice isn't in the hre, so feel free to grab there land, but watch for the ae. I'd probably go after the Croatian lands, and the Serbians, Provence, and the Berbers to bide my time.

 

[Santoes]

Because you border the empire. Your capital, Napoli, borders Siena, a province of the empire, by sea tile. This, combined with your size (base tax, not province count) lets you join if you get very high relations with the emperor.

I forgot about that.

 

[WilburS]

It's hard to give any tips when your start is hindered by the PU. One thing you can do with the Naples start is reduce military maintenance until you are ready to fight for your independence, or you get lucky and it ends.

That's what makes the start interesting and difficult at the same time. I usually don't get involved in Aragon's wars in the beginning unless I have and often they lose me as a vassal pretty soon. This happens like 50% of the time and the other 50% I need to fight for the independence, but that is usually a walk in the park since Spain seems to support me almost always.

Maybe I should go after Tunis the next time. I usually take some land from Venice, but I've had trouble defending them against Austria. I guess it wouldn't be an issue if I joined HRE.

 

[Erilaq]

France is a fair weather friend, you'll get an event to become his PU minor, and it'll hurt relations massively if you say no. That being said, it's a good idea to ally him early, and abuse him often, switching between wars with Aragon, Austria (grabbing HRE wars) and Africa. (the key thing to Aragonese wars is even if you still fight them, don't take any land past the Balearic isles) Ally Spain and when France is weak or embroiled in a large war strike him with Castille/Poland (or any other allies you get) and take the Mediterranean coast from him. from that point on it's gg.

 

[wergy]

One word: diplovassalize. You can go through half of Italy by offering vassalage to the minors. Siena, Urbino, Mantua, Ferrara, Pisa may all accept to be your vassal if you shuffle your cards right. You also want to feed most of Northern Italy to Venice then backstab them and took those provinces yourself. If you're lucky by the time you get there those provinces will lose all but the Venetian core and it will be a walk int he park to get them. If they do have another core you may want to conquer them and release them as vassals, then annex them later.
Being Naples gives you plenty of opportunity to expand into the Mediterranean, create a backyard on the Balkans, go to colonize, conquer some of France or Aragon, create a foothold in Africa... Those can drastically increase your chances when you want to form Italy.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Diplovassal --> annex pisses off everyone in the HRE. It's much better to ally both France and Austria, a ton of HRE mid-majors, then just conquer/core after joining HRE.

France and Austria both get missions on you eventually, so you're going to need some power before then.

It is of course possible to vassal a few electors and become emperor yourself, though this'll be a rough opening for Naples.

 

[Strangedane]

I'm running a Naples game currently and is shocked how easy it is.

Smooch up to Austria, to get support and to join the empire. Become independent, grab cores.
Ally Tuscany and roll up everything including siena. Grab ferrara is possible.
Ditch Austria as ally. Ally France. Go protestant
Get Venice, move cap.

Get a Styrian core, and grab Holland from either Burgundy or Austria.
Feed southern germans to Styria and the lowlands to Holland.
Integrate Holland when you're done feeding them the lowlands, to get access to the channels wealth.
Be ready to PU Castille at a moments notice. Always try to keep them allied, and if not possible at the very least get a RM.

My ideas was maritime, quality, economic, naval, influence. At 22 i dropped both maritime and naval to pick up diplomacy, humanism and defensive.

Throwing out that many points on 2 full groups seems like a lot, but it will more or less secure that enemies that need to land troops will never ever dec you.
I haven't seen as much as a single wardec against me this game, and my AE against austria and bavaria peaked at 450-ish. Needless to say, everyone in the empire i wasn't allied to hated me at that point.
75 years down the line I'm emperor.

Funny note: +10 diplomatic rep will have people at -200 relations voting for erbkaisertum. Both austria and Bavaria thinks it's an awesome idea.

Ed: while i didn't actually form Italy, snatching up tuscany for firenze and romagna is just a matter of doing it.

 

[atwix]

the only reason to form italy for me was the -%coring cost, which was their last idea. Rest of ideas is fine too ofc. But as said above, all provinces are in empire almost.. What you can do is vassalise the papal state and feed it all rest.

But first, ask france to support indepedance, along with aragon. Ally austria once free. Then take it slow and eat aragon with help of castille. If papal state gets cut down to size by france, i think you can vassalise pope in one go. Go from there, get romagna and ancona etc. But for the love of god do NOT attack anything after your independance war until you allied austria.

 

[anomanderus]

Take advantage of the fact that the Pope and Venice are outside the empire

They usually end up allying with other Italian states, and if you can become strong you can use that to your advantage to get multiple targets you want to conquer into the same war

 

[Jorlaan]

I just formed Italy as Naples. I joined the empire to make it possible.

 

[WoollyMammoth]

Great thread with some interesting tips. Playing as Venice right now, and trying to form Italy. Have played as Naples several times (it is one of my favorite starts). An advantage for Naples is the ability to have royal marriages (compared to Venice).

It can be tough. Period. There is a mod out there called 'Serenissima Italia' (as part of Veritas et Fortitudo as well) which focusses on the Italian area that you may find interesting.
It helped me learn about the 'balance of power' in the region of that period. It will give somewhat more of a understanding and feeling for the region and the history, if you don't already know it yet.

Allying France early can help. But, like someone stated, France will sooner or later go into the Savoy, Genoa regions, and that is when tensions can esculate. The problem I've found it is all to easy to become best buds with France and alienate Austria (and the empire). I try to keep Poland/ Commonwealth as allies as well. Also keep an eye on the north such as Sweden, and which allies they have. I try to align myself with one pact or the other (e.g. Portugal/ GB/ Denmark or Sweden/ Poland/ France). Make use of the internal struggle within the Empire, keeping Bohemia and/ or Bavaria with friendly relations and allies if they are vying to be emperor.

I tend to focus on diplomacy with the other small Italian states. Playing as Naples though has the added difficulty that Venice can rival you. In my current Venice game (and 1.8) I'm finding it fairly easy to improve relations, ally, and diplo vassalize. However for me forming Italy is a goal that may take all game. I find it tough, due to all the politics in the region. For example the Papal States or another OPM getting a powerful alliance with an opposite power block.

Also play opportunistic, wait for Austria for example to have several wars, and too occupied, and joining while other wars are going on, which can be hit or miss. Focus on provinces which can earn you money.

As Naples getting a powerful fleet and trade can be tricky, because you will have to compete against Venice, the Ottomans, and in some cases (Iberian Wedding) the Spanish Navy. You may be better off focusing on diplomacy and land armies (supporting allies).

Those are my experiences anyway. I've found it to be not easy at times, and I do keep a sober look, because sometimes you can push the whole thing to far, and get absolutely trounced by Austria or France and its allies for example. Also there can be problems when a large country takes over one of the OPM's (e.g. Aragon in union with Spain taking over a country in your path), which complicates the diplomatic process, because now you have and France and Spain and its allies to worry about.

Also you can try to focus on things like the trade node Alexandrium and Constantinople, then go through to the Indies, build up an empire there, while keeping European countries friendly, this will help with income and local relations, and then form Italy at a later stage if possible. It can also help with your relations with Spain for example when you help them with Morocco, which can help when France no longer likes you. A lot of diplomacy and working a strong economy (and buildings), more than fighting battles yourself, I've found to be an succesful way when playing Naples.

 

[atwix]

allying france will be your downfall if they will ever border you in the next 200 years. Unless, you can PU them. Any nation in italy should simply ally castille and burgundfy and no cb france in 1.8 in their HYW. They will join, and occupy land in your name, unless they got claims.

1.8 made stomping france sooooo much easier. And yes, thats a fact.

 

[Strangedane]

allying france will be your downfall if they will ever border you in the next 200 years.

Not at all.

They might turn hostile over misisons, but those will wear off.

Or if you really need the french alliance you can be gamey and make them fail them.
Savoy mission -> missfires if ANY land they hold when the mission is picked up is no longer in savoys possesion.
Milan mission -> Missfires if milan ceases to exist.
Italy mission -> missfires if all provinces they have claims on changes hands. (sicily is primary nation of sicilian, so you will always be able to unload the land to someone)

I rode out 2 of those without missfiring them, as well as the lowlands mission in my current game. Milan was my vassal and i had most of italy.
France never even decced. The trick is being the initiater of the RM at all times. That way, if the king dies and the heir is a militarist, relations might suffer and they might even go hostile, but the RM is bound to your king, so they can't attack without a stab hit, something i don't recall ever seeing the AI do.

When the militarist dies, someone else takes over and unless you are REALLY unlucky, they won't get 2 militarists in a row.

 

[atwix]

Not at all.

They might turn hostile over misisons, but those will wear off.

Or if you really need the french alliance you can be gamey and make them fail them.
Savoy mission -> missfires if ANY land they hold when the mission is picked up is no longer in savoys possesion.
Milan mission -> Missfires if milan ceases to exist.
Italy mission -> missfires if all provinces they have claims on changes hands. (sicily is primary nation of sicilian, so you will always be able to unload the land to someone)

I rode out 2 of those without missfiring them, as well as the lowlands mission in my current game. Milan was my vassal and i had most of italy.
France never even decced. The trick is being the initiater of the RM at all times. That way, if the king dies and the heir is a militarist, relations might suffer and they might even go hostile, but the RM is bound to your king, so they can't attack without a stab hit, something i don't recall ever seeing the AI do.

When the militarist dies, someone else takes over and unless you are REALLY unlucky, they won't get 2 militarists in a row.

true, but you still lost alliance. Are you talking about keeping rm for PU purposes? Its a lucky nation. Pu France is easy as PU Russia, si ce they ally republics usually like venice switzerland. Less heir chance, no rm. Keepig rm in such situation is only useful if you can trigger a succesion war with just a rm. But usually france only has good PU chance if their heir dies with a king of 70 year so to speak. But it happens more frequent now.

Anyways, only reason to leep rm with france while they go hostile is succesion war or a force PU war iif they got your dynasty. You are right about militarist king though. But burgundy is LOT worse then france in that regard.


I still say, handle France early on, or you will regret it later. TBH, i would never play any nation around france without doing so..