Trust system makes balance of power politics impossible

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Jaol

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The new trust system is great for maintaining existing alliances, but it can lead to serious problems for creating new ones. In particular, it makes the sort of shifting alliances that characterized European balance of power politics during the EU timeframe almost completely impossible.

The reason is a sort of catch-22 that occurs once you lose trust with a nation by going to war against it: With low trust, the nation will not accept an alliance offer. But without an alliance, there is, as far as I can tell, no way to raise trust.

Guarantees don't raise trust. Nor does forcing other nations to return cores to or give up claims in the nation you want to ally with. Trust does seem to increase naturally over time, but the rate is so slow (1 point every 10-20 years, from what I can tell) that it doesn't allow for nations to play the balance of power game.

This can lead to really crazy situations, both in terms of gameplay and historical plausibility. For example: eu4_13.jpg

In the screenshot, you can see Denmark (AI) is friendly to Novgorod (me), has common rivals, etc. but will not accept an alliance offer because of low trust (30). It has 120 positive reasons to accept an alliance, but low trust gives it -2000 negative.

At the beginning of the above game, Denmark and I (Novgorod) were rivals, and I supported Sweden's independence and helped it win its independence war. As a result, Denmark's trust dropped to below 30. Shortly afterwards, however, Sweden broke the alliance with me (Novgorod) and set me as a rival. Now Denmark and I are no longer rivals, and we are both rivals and enemies of Sweden. This is a situation where makes perfect sense for Denmark and Novgorod to overlook past hostilities and realign against Sweden. But the trust system is preventing that. The AI won't accept an alliance because of trust. And there's no way for the player to increase trust.​
 
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Doing good things for particular country should increase trust. Like returning cores, enforcing peace, fighting together while not being allies, releasing in peace etc.
 
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BrokenSky

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I think plans are for trust less than 50 to slowly decay back to 50 over time in 1.15, but I may be mistaken.
 
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Oldpara

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I think plans are for trust less than 50 to slowly decay back to 50 over time in 1.15, but I may be mistaken.

This is already in game, but recover slowly and only to 50.

What is even more bizzare if you have ally with 100 trust and you got PU over them your trust starts to decay to 50

But maybe its reasonable? PU with 100 would be unbreakable and things like PU France-Austria or England-Brandenburg happens.
 
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BrokenSky

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This is already in game, but recover slowly and only to 50.

What is even more bizzare if you have ally with 100 trust and you got PU over them your trust starts to decay to 50

But maybe its reasonable? PU with 100 would be unbreakable and things like PU France-Austria or England-Brandenburg happens.

Perhaps. It would still be nice to be able to get trust for vassals though.
 
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grandad1982

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I'm my ottomans game my vassal Georgia had very low trust. It seems silly to me that I can't raise it even though they have been my vassal for nearly 100 years.
 
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grumphie

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they should either remove the trust LD penalty for subjects or give us a way to boost it within a reasonable time. if i get itno conflict with soemone a few times and vasselaise them soemtimes after, they will forever hate my guts even if they are a loyal vassel for decades and i help them recover land they lost to my former alleis ect.

trust always equalising to 50 is also a problem, as even if conflicting intrests drive you away as allies, unless you actually ocme itno conflict with them i dont see why 100 trust should decay to 50,, or why helping someone win a tough war doesnt yield trust on itself. if, say, hungary is beset upon by the ottomans and austria fights tooth and nail to help them i'd say that warrants a trust increase on it's own, and not soemthign that should decay if they break the alliance but stay friendly neighbours.
 

mursolini

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Nations should put their interests above trust, but only if seriously threatened. Like IF Sweden is going to murder Danes in next 2 decades, it mekes sence to get any Allies it can get.
 
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This is really problematic, if one dishonor a couple of DotF calls he won't be able to ally anyone.
I fail to see how "if one dishonor a couple of DotF calls he won't be able to ally anyone" is problematic, except insofar as the AI is perhaps a little too keen to take DotF if it has the spare cash.
 
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Nations should put their interests above trust, but only if seriously threatened. Like IF Sweden is going to murder Danes in next 2 decades, it mekes sence to get any Allies it can get.

So how would that work, something like "Nations with the threatened or rival condition against a common enemy will always accept alliance?"
 

CharlesTheBald

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Agreed!

Recently started to play EU4 again with the Cossacks DLC and I can't help but feel that the diplomacy system is now more or representing AI "emotions" rather than strategic interests and "realpolitik". Diplomacy should be all about the latter. "Soft values" shouldn't have anything to do with diplomacy. The game gets so predictable and static.

Some spontaneous suggestions to make the game less predictable :) :

  • Keep trust, favors etc for normal alliances, but make this traditional friendship oriented "alliance" a rare thing which AI will not accept unless having common rivals and no conflicting interests (like England-Portugal and France-Scotland for example).
  • Instead, rework coalitions and make them open for frequent use, not just when a nation has accumulated AE. This should be used by the AI to contain common enemies.
  • To balance things out, make separate peace deals with coalition members possible and remove the ahistorical nonsense limitations ( ;) ).
  • Introduce a cool feature where involved nations can be made to switch sides during a war under the right circumstances (happened alot!).
  • Introduce a cool feature where you can make a short term secret alliance that is directed at a specific oppenent (happened sometimes). This would have a monthly chance of being discovered giving a penalty on AE, trust etc until activated by a war, where it also would give some penalties.
  • Make it possible to enter into wars after they have already started without necessarily being allied to the defender, for example make "enforce peace" easier to use against rivals...
  • AI nations should recognize when a coalition/allies gets to big and should work to contain it and brake it. A big coalition/allies should make countries not part of it work together if geographically close enogh.
  • Make it possible to do more dealing with the other nations. Influence nations to leave your rival's alliance in exchange for promises, make it possible to make a nation go to war against a rival in return for subsidies etc...
  • Make more use of the new estates system and make "support" from the estates (or parliament... or factions) necassary in order to wage an effective war effort. Before going to war you must get the internal support needed or have massive penalties (depending on which estate opposes your war) and unrest. Some casi belli will always have support from at least one estate (like burghers supporting trade wars, clergy supporting holy wars etc), others must be convinced with promises of land etc. A nation losing a war with occupied home provinces should always be able rally support when the situation gets critical.
 
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I think plans are for trust less than 50 to slowly decay back to 50 over time in 1.15, but I may be mistaken.

No, that's with Estate Loyalty.
 
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alqemist

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Agreed!

Recently started to play EU4 again with the Cossacks DLC and I can't help but feel that the diplomacy system is now more or representing AI "emotions" rather than strategic interests and "realpolitik". Diplomacy should be all about the latter.

I haven't played since 1.12 came out. It sounds like it is moving in the direction of Civ 5, which is not a good thing. Unfortunately modelling feelings based diplomacy is much easier than modelling realpolitik based diplomacy. The latter depends crucially on the game state whereas the former is just a matter of toting up who's been naughty and who's been nice.

"Soft values" shouldn't have anything to do with diplomacy. The game gets so predictable and static.

They can count for a little but not for much.
 
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In general the trust system needs an overhaul. If anything, the game previously had more mobility in terms of diplomacy compared to the situation now.
 
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Wizzington

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I agree this is a problem. Will look into solutions.
 
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Agreed!

Recently started to play EU4 again with the Cossacks DLC and I can't help but feel that the diplomacy system is now more or representing AI "emotions" rather than strategic interests and "realpolitik". Diplomacy should be all about the latter. "Soft values" shouldn't have anything to do with diplomacy. The game gets so predictable and static.
You're right:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_House_of_Brandenburg
Sorry, couldn't refuse. Diplomacy should be mostly (some 80%) about realpolitik with some less psychopatological touches to make it less predictable.
 
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