True encirclement

[Elecwaves]

Here's the idea. You can;'t encircle the enemy if he can escape into one of your territories. In HoI2, especially with motorised/mechanised/armoured division, you could leave most of your territories open, surround some infantry, and atatck him before they can take one of yours, then you kill them because 'they can't escape'.

I don't think this is realistic. The infantry would be able to escape into your territory when broken, they wouldn't just give up. At least not anymore than a broken enemy would when retreating into his own territory. It would force you to actually have them encircled.

Same thing for paratroopers. If they fail an airdrop into resisting territory, then they shouldn't be gone, they should retreat to an unoccupied territory, enemy or friendly, though they would take like 50% strength damage probably

 

[unmerged(109522)]

Unfortunately, I am forced to agree with this, even though I exploit this AI weakness to the nth degree.

Oh well, there goes one of my tricks.

 

[Shadow Master]

Actually, I had a post about this before, but don't know where it is.

Only the game mechanics have allowed a 'broken' division to take a province back, and only because you cannot attack them while they are retreating. Although I can appreciate the designers desire to prevent easy killing of broken divisions, they need to fix this by forcing retreating divisions to retreat to a friendly province or be destroyed in place. Broken divisions shouldn't be allowed to take an offensive action in the first place, let alone being immune to counterattack while doing so.

 

[unmerged(113444)]

I wouldn't want to chase units around the map like EU3 but it does sound more realistic

 

[unmerged(112153)]

Encircled armies should also be able to last much longer under full encirclement then in HoI2...

The Leningrad pocket is perhaps the best historical example for this (wich i hardly ever saw in HoI2), but there were dozens of pockets during the war that lasted for a 'really' long time.

 

[Naga Niome]

I agree with this suggestion, but I feel Paratroopers and encircled divisions should be treated uniquely and separately, because it is two very different situations.

Honestly I'm not sure how Paratroopers should be treated but I feel that when an Airborne mission is unsuccessful, the Paratrooper division shouldn't be destroyed. They should be brought back to the Transport's airfield with 25-50% Strength, to represent the waves they were coming in and the fact they didn't all "drop out the planes at once", because that didn't really happen. The American paratroopers in 1944 France had to drop 10,000's by the hours.

Encircling divisions you shouldn't have to occupy every province around the pocket to annihilate it, but, encircled divisions should only incur the Lack of Supply penalty to represent the supply lines are cut-off, but technically there is no actual frontline-like divisions on the surrounding provinces dictating a lack of an Retreat penalty and Envelop either.

Encircled divisions should have the right to not incur No Retreat penalty if one province is occupied, they should be able to be forced to retreat there as well because I consider that a flaw of Hearts Of Iron 2 significantly, amongst other things.

Secondly, when divisions are Retreating I wish Paradox Interactive simulated game-wise a Fighting Retreat and Disorganized Retreat. When your division is Retreating because it lost all of it's Organization should clearly be an Disorganized Retreat. Those divisions should automatically and immediately be affected by a 50% Strength loss. Including Morale should play a larger role in HoI3 and loss all their Morale percentage as well.

Lastly, when a division is defending a province and you order that division to leave that province you should be allowed to choose where to retreat from. If there is more than once province to move to you should be allowed to, if it's not already in-game. Otherwise, your division should technically be still Defending that province but incuring a trickling loss of Organization and Strength. The trickling Strength loss should only be allowed to reach a maximum of 25% clearly for balance, but Morale should be hit 50% and Organization as it goes. If a division hit's 0 Organization while in a Fighting Retreat, it should be thrown into an Disorganized Retreat and suffer the 50% Strength loss to realistically represent left wounded, abandonded tanks, poor or non-existent rear-guard, cetera.

 

[Naga Niome]

Encircled armies should also be able to last much longer under full encirclement then in HoI2...

The Leningrad pocket is perhaps the best historical example for this (wich i hardly ever saw in HoI2), but there were dozens of pockets during the war that lasted for a 'really' long time.

You're right Clausewitzz, but I find your argument more of an gameplay balance issue that isn't reflecting realistic standards. I play this Compendium Mod that uses that TRP that makes battles dramatically longer.

But you see, it's because modder's raise the Tough and Defensive values of divisions by from like 10 to 52 for an Infantry division, while leaving say an Infantry's soft attack still at 10. Raising overall Organization and Morale up by a dozen or so Land Doctrine's aside and it creates epic engagements.

But I still agree with you, I hope Paradox Interactive tackles this and brings a more realistic representation of World War strategy, because I'm tired of these fast-ass battles.

I really hope Support Attack is balanced even if it means fixing another feature... like Support Defense. Support Defense should make divisions in that mission go into that designated province twice as fast and if they ever come under attack by an adjacent enemy province they should be immediately brought back in one second.

But personally I wish Support Attack and Defense had an trickle effect into the province that's being fought other as if it was an increasing battle modifier for Defender's and Attacker's.

 

[Elecwaves]

Honestly I'm not sure how Paratroopers should be treated but I feel that when an Airborne mission is unsuccessful, the Paratrooper division shouldn't be destroyed. They should be brought back to the Transport's airfield with 25-50% Strength, to represent the waves they were coming in and the fact they didn't all "drop out the planes at once", because that didn't really happen. The American paratroopers in 1944 France had to drop 10,000's by the hours.

I always had the idea in my head that the transports just dropped everyone, even if the paratroopers went into retreat, I don't think they radioed the Transports or HQ right as they retreat saying "stop the drop sarge!" Besides it usually takes around 5-6 hours before the paratroopers are put into retreat (or destroyed) in HoI2 anyways.

Secondly, when divisions are Retreating I wish Paradox Interactive simulated game-wise a Fighting Retreat and Disorganized Retreat. When your division is Retreating because it lost all of it's Organization should clearly be an Disorganized Retreat. Those divisions should automatically and immediately be affected by a 50% Strength loss. Including Morale should play a larger role in HoI3 and loss all their Morale percentage as well.

This I like, it makes sense logically, and it could be implemented theoretically. While not perfect it's a step in the right direction too. Make it so if they're surrounded, and they auto retreat (due to loss or organisation), then they will disband, and drop their weapons, getting captured or eescaping as civilians. If you chose to retreat them, then you could target the territory they retreat to, and you could even give them a strength reduction related to organisation to represent men who gave up anyways, or deserted suring the encircled retreat. However, this can't happen at all if there is no open province to retreat to.

 

[unmerged(105989)]

I agree with this suggestion, but I feel Paratroopers and encircled divisions should be treated uniquely and separately, because it is two very different situations.

Honestly I'm not sure how Paratroopers should be treated but I feel that when an Airborne mission is unsuccessful, the Paratrooper division shouldn't be destroyed. They should be brought back to the Transport's airfield with 25-50% Strength, to represent the waves they were coming in and the fact they didn't all "drop out the planes at once", because that didn't really happen. The American paratroopers in 1944 France had to drop 10,000's by the hours.

Encircling divisions you shouldn't have to occupy every province around the pocket to annihilate it, but, encircled divisions should only incur the Lack of Supply penalty to represent the supply lines are cut-off, but technically there is no actual frontline-like divisions on the surrounding provinces dictating a lack of an Retreat penalty and Envelop either.

Encircled divisions should have the right to not incur No Retreat penalty if one province is occupied, they should be able to be forced to retreat there as well because I consider that a flaw of Hearts Of Iron 2 significantly, amongst other things.

Secondly, when divisions are Retreating I wish Paradox Interactive simulated game-wise a Fighting Retreat and Disorganized Retreat. When your division is Retreating because it lost all of it's Organization should clearly be an Disorganized Retreat. Those divisions should automatically and immediately be affected by a 50% Strength loss. Including Morale should play a larger role in HoI3 and loss all their Morale percentage as well.

Lastly, when a division is defending a province and you order that division to leave that province you should be allowed to choose where to retreat from. If there is more than once province to move to you should be allowed to, if it's not already in-game. Otherwise, your division should technically be still Defending that province but incuring a trickling loss of Organization and Strength. The trickling Strength loss should only be allowed to reach a maximum of 25% clearly for balance, but Morale should be hit 50% and Organization as it goes. If a division hit's 0 Organization while in a Fighting Retreat, it should be thrown into an Disorganized Retreat and suffer the 50% Strength loss to realistically represent left wounded, abandonded tanks, poor or non-existent rear-guard, cetera.

I agree with everything you mention here but the airborne. If a unit is truly defeated in a division level airdrop, even though there might be guys left back in the rear, the unit is gone. 25% strength is destroyed in military thought. At that point, it is just as effective to raise a whole new unit.

Perhaps something that could be included on an airborne assault mission is the decision on how much of your attack force will go in so many lifts. More lifts require longer for the air transports to accomplish the mission, the paras have fewer troops on the ground, but lose less org in the drop, and if the drop is defeated (or called off - another option that should be allowed) less strength loss. Less lifts require less time to complete the mission, you have more troops on the ground sooner, the division loses more org in the drop, and if the drop is defeated, the division loses more strength up to complete annihilation.

The org loss in the drops (more org loss for fewer trips) seems a bit counterintuitive, but I think that it represents the mass confusion of sorting out several units all intermingled together during the drop. A more trip drop represents a more orderly process.

 

[Elecwaves]

25% strength is destroyed in military thought. At that point, it is just as effective to raise a whole new unit.

I don't agree with this necessarily. It would still be logically cheaper to reinforce the 25% airborne division in a bit, then to wait 6 months and build a new one. Reinforcing is both better, and stronger. But as i stated above, since they'd retreat by disorganised retrest, then only if they border your territory can they escape back, I think if they were deep in enemy territory they'd probably hide as civilians.

Perhaps something that could be included on an airborne assault mission is the decision on how much of your attack force will go in so many lifts. More lifts require longer for the air transports to accomplish the mission, the paras have fewer troops on the ground, but lose less org in the drop, and if the drop is defeated (or called off - another option that should be allowed) less strength loss. Less lifts require less time to complete the mission, you have more troops on the ground sooner, the division loses more org in the drop, and if the drop is defeated, the division loses more strength up to complete annihilation.

I think in reality dropping off paratroopers didn't take days to finish, most instances of airdrops I think the transports were done in 3 hours, and in HoI2 at least, it took around 7-8 (usually) for the paratroopers to be finished off.

 

[unmerged(105989)]

The point is that with 25% left, the division as an effective force would cease to exist. So many of the structures would be destroyed that you would, in effect, be rebuilding the division from scratch anyways.

 

[unmerged(49695)]

Encircled armies should also be able to last much longer under full encirclement then in HoI2...

The Leningrad pocket is perhaps the best historical example for this (wich i hardly ever saw in HoI2), but there were dozens of pockets during the war that lasted for a 'really' long time.

Leningrad wasnt trully encircled. It has sea connections. For example i've played a game as soviets with some friends, where leningrad was encircled by the finns in north and germans in the south, and the 45 divisions there lasted months, not ever being taken, sincei could supply it from the sea.

 

[unmerged(105989)]

Leningrad wasnt trully encircled. It has sea connections. For example i've played a game as soviets with some friends, where leningrad was encircled by the finns in north and germans in the south, and the 45 divisions there lasted months, not ever being taken, sincei could supply it from the sea.

you know, that would be cool if the game could model better resupply over frozen bodies of water, like what happened in Leningrad. Where during the winter the city actually gets more supplies than during the summer.

 

[unmerged(112153)]

Leningrad wasnt trully encircled. It has sea connections. For example i've played a game as soviets with some friends, where leningrad was encircled by the finns in north and germans in the south, and the 45 divisions there lasted months, not ever being taken, sincei could supply it from the sea.

This seaconnection was only open for a few months each year when the lake was frozen hard enough for trucks to move across it, supplies were low on everything in Leningrad for allmost 3 years... but still they held out.

You can create this pocket in a multiplayer game without doubt when a human can controll it himself, but i never saw the AI do this kind of pockets in HoI2 and surely not for this long.
Besides Leningrad is just one example of many.

 

[Volt]

Units shouldn't run out of supplies as quickly as they do now, not on the game's strategic scale. They should last at least for a week or so of combat, that would ease the problem of instant-surrenders a bit.

 

[unmerged(56754)]

Paratroops can retreat into the next province if you own it.

 

[Elecwaves]

Paratroops can retreat into the next province if you own it.

By golly, you learn something new every day!
I honestly never knew that, I usually use paratroopers to take airbases behind enemy lines to assist in my air operations haha. Thank you for the tip, and I guess that solves one of my problems.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

I wouldn't want to chase units around the map like EU3 but it does sound more realistic

That's why it probably won't happen. It will become more of a chore to wipe out units. It's only possible in EU3 now if they are on an island with no ship capable of holding them or if all provinces they could legally retreat to have tougher units with high ratio.

 

[unmerged(31881)]

You can create this pocket in a multiplayer game without doubt when a human can controll it himself, but i never saw the AI do this kind of pockets in HoI2 and surely not for this long.
Besides Leningrad is just one example of many.

The Demyansk pocket would be another one.

 

[unmerged(58541)]

NO!!!Don`t bring this stupid annoying idea from Europa Universalis here where you battled 10 times before you could annihilate the enemy army.I defeat the enemy in his only province left and he instead of disappear just goes and lays a siege in one of my provinces complete nonsence!!Historicly whenever an army was encircled it either "disappeard" or was capture.

This is my opinion and i`m not willing to argue about it.