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hendriks

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Lothos said:
Hendriks your missing the point here. That screenshot is showing the IC cost as 34IC with 3 days to complete each unit. Something is definately wrong here.

If I take a save game where I was playing Cuba and then load it up as the USSR I should get the same costs as the AI would. Something is definately wrong here!

No idea what that can be, never seen it and it shouldn't be there as I don't touch the build costs, only build time, this is in the New_Order folder and then the NOE file, Human GER against a SOV AI, there are 3 split GPW event, one for a human GER against a SOV AI, one an AI GER against an AI SOV and one of a human SOV against a SOV AI. Human against human changes nothing.
 

hendriks

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Hallsten said:
Lothos, what's the intended time and daily cost for an inf as the USSR?

The intended time for the SOV AI against a human GER =

First year of war;
inf -30
mot -30
arm -80
mech -50

Second year;
inf -15
mot -30
arm - 10
mech -30

Third year;
inf -7
mot -5
arm -20
mech -5

fourth year, complete reverse back to pre-war build times.

In reality, this means a total build time with all tech bonusses and events for infantry a 3 day build time for 4 IC.

All is balanced by MP, which has been drastically cut down to not have the USSR above 350-400 infantry, this excludes guards infantry.
Most of this infantry is at 25-50% understrength in the final years and is hardly upgraded as this is too expensive for the AI.

Do not only look at numbers, but at placing as well, the problem of units constantly SR'ing has been fixed, but the USSR (like GER) keeps min 1 unit in all provinces from Moscow to the west and large amounts are in reserve.

A human can obviously still win and this has been demonstrated in our forum, but it is not easy anymore.
It is either this or a drastic change in USSR IC, wich clearly outproduced the German economy and was also faster in producing less quality units. I think this is very well represented now, but I can't say anything about the 35 IC buildcost, I have never seen this before and cannot check this right now.
 

hendriks

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Hallsten said:
Playing as Germany I decided to load as the USSR just to see how they were doing, and this is what the build-queue looked like:
As you can see the IC-costs are completely out of whack compared to the ~4IC/day that an inf-division should cost. Also, three days are required to build an inf-division, is this really WAD?

Seems like all costs are normal EXCEPT the big build runs of 58 and 60 inf. I wonder if this is really the build cost or just a day load error, have you let it run for a day?
 

Hallsten

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hendriks said:
Seems like all costs are normal EXCEPT the big build runs of 58 and 60 inf. I wonder if this is really the build cost or just a day load error, have you let it run for a day?
Yes, it had run for more than a day.
But inf divs never ever cost that much for the USSR?
 

hendriks

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Hallsten said:
Yes, it had run for more than a day.
But inf divs never ever cost that much for the USSR?

No, and it is definitely wrong, I'll look at it now if I can reproduce.
Just one clarification. You are playing Germany and you DOW'ed the USSR normally in 1941? How did your campaign go, as I think you are now in 1943?
Thanks
 

hendriks

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Mm, I looked into this and it has to do with the brigades. If you build a normal inf without attachment, the costs are as is, 3.9 IC for 3 days build time, if you attach a brigade in the build, i.e. artillery, the cost sky rockets from 3.9 to 28.3.
Now, what I think is happening is the following, the attachment needs to be payed for anyway, over the devellopment period of the infantry, so the shorter the buildtime, the higher the cost of the build if it includes a brigade.

Artillery takes 43 days to build and requires 5.1 IC

But, if I attach that to an infantry division that has a build of ANY time BELOW that 43 days, the IC is multiplied by the missing amount of devellopment days.

So, a division with artillery attached takes 9 days to complete, missing time for artillery is 34 days, 34 days x 5.1 IC = 173.4 IC 173.4:9 = 19.2 - 28.3 (calculated IC by game) = -9.03 which are the number of days. Hence, attaching an artillery brigade to a shorter build of an infantry division streches the IC over that period.

Or, easier calculated, the 5.1 IC X 40 days that are "missing" due to the drop in build time are 20.4 + 3.9 for the division = 24.3 IC which is what I'm getting.

Not really sure what to do about this, but it is only an AI problem which is incorrect but does not effect the game preformance, it is just very expensive for the AI to generate the attachment brigade in that short time. Overall, the AI is able to provide the divisions.
If I would also shorten the buid time of brigades, the game could have a whole different outcome, with many more divisions being able to complete as they cost much less. If we want to adjust this, I will need a few weeks to make sure the outcome is as current.
 
Last edited:

Hallsten

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hendriks said:
Mm, I looked into this and it has to do with the brigades. If you build a normal inf without attachment, the costs are as is, 3.9 IC for 3 days build time, if you attach a brigade in the build, i.e. artillery, the cost sky rockets from 3.9 to 28.3.
Now, what I think is happening is the following, the attachment needs to be payed for anyway, over the devellopment period of the infantry, so the shorter the buildtime, the higher the cost of the build if it includes a brigade.

Artillery takes 43 days to build and requires 5.1 IC

But, if I attach that to an infantry division that has a build of ANY time BELOW that 43 days, the IC is multiplied by the missing amount of devellopment days.

So, a division with artillery attached takes 9 days to complete, missing time for artillery is 34 days, 34 days x 5.1 IC = 173.4 IC 173.4:9 = 19.2 - 28.3 (calculated IC by game) = -9.03 which are the number of days. Hence, attaching an artillery brigade to a shorter build of an infantry division streches the IC over that period.

Or, easier calculated, the 5.1 IC X 40 days that are "missing" due to the drop in build time are 20.4 + 3.9 for the division = 24.3 IC which is what I'm getting.

Not really sure what to do about this, but it is only an AI problem which is incorrect but does not effect the game preformance, it is just very expensive for the AI to generate the attachment brigade in that short time. Overall, the AI is able to provide the divisions.
If I would also shorten the buid time of brigades, the game could have a whole different outcome, with many more divisions being able to complete as they cost much less. If we want to adjust this, I will need a few weeks to make sure the outcome is as current.
aaaaah, that's true...good catch... :)

Is the three day build-time for inf divs really WAD btw? I agree that it should be easier for the USSR to build inf, but a cut in time by more than 90% seems a bit extreme...
 

hendriks

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Hallsten said:
aaaaah, that's true...good catch... :)

Is the three day build-time for inf divs really WAD btw? I agree that it should be easier for the USSR to build inf, but a cut in time by more than 90% seems a bit extreme...

It is when they make full use of the cut, unfortunately, they don't, they are very slow to build up but all values need to be looked at again now that I'm fixing the brigades as well, all very difficult to balance as the costs change with each tech almost :(

I'm just from the understanding that a human can pocket 100-150 divisions in the east easily in the first 2-3 months. With a start of 230 and 25 in the extreme east, the USSR is left with 50-75 odd divisions, these cannot even hold a human in winter, so after a long thought and looking at the USSR IC output which is WAY below Germany's, I saw this as the only way instead of giving them out freely. It needs to be balanced by a reasonably historical USSR MP and obviously they shouldn't produce 100 divisions in 2 months, but in the spring/summer of 1942, 11 NEW ARMIES were raised, 11 x 12 divisions creates the need IF the USSR is in trouble and it all went historical (Germany opting for forced occupation and plunder etc), I do think a drastic buildtime reduction is fair.
Other option is the quick creation of 0 MP units that need to be "manned", most infantry in USSR for a human will be 1941, as by 1943 Germany has a huge advantage in techs/doctrines. That's the way it went historically, but it should still be possible to take the USSR out, and it is.
 

Lothos

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Hendriks you could attach the build times to the invasion policy. Meaning if Germany chooses Conquer then that would cause more people to flock and help Stalin. If they choose to liberate less people would help Stalin etc... there by making the bonus to buildtime less

etc....
 

unmerged(63886)

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Lothos said:
Hendriks you could attach the build times to the invasion policy. Meaning if Germany chooses Conquer then that would cause more people to flock and help Stalin. If they choose to liberate less people would help Stalin etc... there by making the bonus to buildtime less

etc....

Does this mean that the new patch (0.91.2 or 0.92) will be delayed more than just "a day or two"?

My two cents says it works good as it is (the russian, I can't beat them atleast, so therefore I'm happy ;)) and with all the new changes are so many and so good, it should be released.

"Why fix something that isn't broken", so to say. :)

But your the chief and I humbley await the new patch as I'm currently stucked two provinces west of Moscow (winter '41) and trying to get a line to be able to hold against the massive Red Army in the spring of '42. :)

And one last thing, the new AI changes (primarly for the USA, as I understand?) does it mean that USA will perfome real (!!!) attemps to invade main-land Europe when I'm stucked in the easten front? :confused: You mean I have to put lots of reserve troops in the west, aouch. ;)
 

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TeutonburgerW said:
And one last thing, the new AI changes (primarly for the USA, as I understand?) does it mean that USA will perfome real (!!!) attemps to invade main-land Europe when I'm stucked in the easten front? :confused: You mean I have to put lots of reserve troops in the west, aouch. ;)

Yes, I am still working it out but it appears this new parms that I am using will do just that.
 

unmerged(63886)

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More Elite Divisions

Are there plans to have more elite divisions (as in GER and SOV) for USA? Marine Corps would be kind of cool, but perhaps they are more like regular marines (but perhaps deserves higher moral and org, in my belive?).

BTW, played a weird game: Dowed France (or Poland) or some country in '36. When France started to invade, it popped up a event which gave me lots of garrison (10-15 or such). Is this for human only or for AI also? Also, is there a switch (can absolutley nothing about AI, I admit) which "forces" GER to switch to produce militias, garrisons and cheap units when the russians storming through? I really got the "wonderful" feeling of fighting for survival and when those HJ division popped up, I managed to stop those francemens right along Potsdam, East see (Östersjön as we say in Sweden) and the provinces right below potsam towards Czhecokslovakia.
 

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I am not sure what event you are refering to that gives you 15 units. I have to look into it as I never heard of it.

THere are no militia in TRP

Yes Germany concentrates on Land more.
 

unmerged(63886)

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Lothos said:
I am not sure what event you are refering to that gives you 15 units. I have to look into it as I never heard of it.

THere are no militia in TRP

Yes Germany concentrates on Land more.

It gave me 2 Garrison II units as well as lots of garrison I units. The Garrison II units were named Hitler Jugend or something like that. I belive the event was named "Defend the reich" or "defend the fatherland" or something like that and the option it gave me were two: create those divisions and suffering one percent dissent or deny with fem percent dissent I belive.

Perhaps nothing you recive since you guys never seems to loose a game. ;)
 

robw963

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I seem to recall reading in the germany.txt event file an event which gives germany a bunch of garrison divs when 2 German proviences are lost. Perhaps that's what happened?