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Lord Rommel

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Thanks Lord Rommel
One question-has Germany another "resource minister" like Goring?-because
he dissapears if Schacht stays
Nope. He is the only one. I used the DH minister here because i dont want to add a "new minister" for a single optional minister. At the moment there are no plans to expand the amount of DH resource ministers (e.g. lack of candidates).

Ok can anybody explain why my CAS and TACS are so useless?Example:

I have 5 Cas and 8 Tacs doing interdiction against 9 Belgian divions that are getting attacked by my 9 divsions and they barely do anything.However 5 british tacs are easly able to reduce my org with every attack.The Belgians have no AA, neither brigades nor in the province.

Considering what 5 british tacs can do my tacs and CAS should absolutely slaughter the enemy and in any other mod they do just that.So what am I doing wrong?It's 1940 and I have researched Ground Attack 1940 my tacs are 1939 while my CAS are 1940.So I don't think it's a tech issue ,I'm also using leaders with high skill and rank and they are timed so that there is no stacking penality.
First of all we dont want to add "slaughter everything bombers" in TRP. It dosent look real when a number of planes can annihilate an entire division within days/weeks. Furthermore is the belgian corps dug in? Dug in bonus is a problem for any bomber unit. Moving units are easy targets. TACs and CAS are also good to destroy the local infrastructure. A bombing campaign against the infrastructure might be better against the enemy.
 

qer

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The command limit on naval warfare should be increased . It is ridiculously small and not realistic at all (just consider how many ships were commanded by the US or the amount of sub's in the biggest German wolfpacks). Having to use so many stacks not only is micro hell, but it doesn't suit DH mechanics. I changed the values of my game by *3, and I believe is better
 

Lord Rommel

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Hm. That is an old problem; What is a fleet? As far as i know there werent a lot of fleets with more of 16~20 ships during a battle. Look at the battle of Midway. Any fleet that took part in the operations had 15~20 ships max.
So at the moment we will keep the numbers because we had to rebalance the naval stats with a new fleet size (AA defense, sea attack, overstacking penalty, ectect).
Perhaps Studti can/will tell more.
 

DerStudti

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Historical point of view:
Let's have a look at the largest fleet engagements in WW2.
  • Coral Sea had 24/25 japanese vessels fight 28/29 US ships in three task forces, both considering units that would be simulated as combat vehicles in TRP (and not just convoi escorts).
  • Midway had 26 US ships + 16 submarines fight 21 japanese ships + 48 which didn't participate in the battle (=> in TRP: lingering around in adjacent province)...and the US forces consisted of two fleets/task forces while the japanese had three fleets in the area.
  • JAP used 20 major warships + 28 submarines for its attack on Pearl Harbor.
  • At Guadalcanal, 20 US ships fought 28 japanese vessels, split up in several smaller fleets.
  • Eastern Solomons saw 18 US ships fight 47 japanese ones. Both forces were organized into several smaller fleets.
  • At Cape Matapan, ENG fought ITA with 21 vs. 22 warships, split into 2 (ENG) and 4 (ITA) fleets.
  • At Punta Stilo, the Italians sent 49 warships (3 fleets) against 25 british vessels (3 fleets).
  • At Leyte Gulf, the Allies sent 173 major warships against 63 japanese ones. The US task forces consisted of 26, 9, 45 and 91 (!) ships while the japenese battlegroups were much smaller at 17, 32, 7 and 7 ships.
As you can see, most individual fleets in WW2 consisted of below 20 warships each, but sometimes they engaged the enemy together or at least one after another...which may very well also be represented in HoI by naval fights in different but adjacent provinces.

Gameplay point of view:
When you raise the command limit, you also raise the probability of focus fire on one single target and hence the probability of a fatal casualty. Considering it takes several years to build and upgrade a large warship, we thought that it would be less frustrating for the player to reduce the chance for fatal losses from just one single engagement. If you catch an isolated enemy fleet far away from any support and you can force it into several consecutive engagements, maybe also against land-based bombers, you shall be rewarded by sinking ships. But if you just happen to run into some unlucky engagement close to home, you shall be given the chance to retreat and repair. That's especially important in MP matches because you can't conquer any province with just naval forces and they aren't exactly cheap, so there's always a preference for army units. If ships are both expensive and too vulnerable, noone will consider building them any more.
 

qer

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The historical view prove my point. Even if they were separate fleets, in game they would be probably represented better as just as one group of fleets, just as in land warfare you may join as many divs as you want. Most of those engagements would go over the command limit in game. Wolfpacks in the Atlantic sometimes went over the 20 submarines, something impossible to do with game mechanics. Also another good example of how ridiculous concentration of ships is the battle of jutland, that while an engagement like that would be very unprovable in game, it could still happen. As for gameplay, having so many little fleets just needesly increase the micro. While the argument of focus fire is true, to be significant there's need to be a big disparity on force. At the end of the day the problem is mainly with the naval combat mechanics, but I don't believe that forcing the player into having smaller fleets solves anything. If he needs force concentration, he should be able to join fleets. If he wants to disperse then, he would use more (for ASW for example)
 

DerStudti

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@JJMerrill: Japan is one of our main nations, but it suffers from AI problems with fleet management. The naval preferences for most major nations sadly are hardcoded (AI file entries are simply ignored), so we just can't get the USA to properly use all their new shiny warships produced until 1943. Many will just rot in ports while a human player may easily get rid of the resulting few and small flotillas as they drop into the Pacific. You might still be somewhat entertained fighting China or the Allies in Burma, but it's clearly one of our weaker theatres until the naval AI gets somewhat more competent.
As for the Kwantung Army, it mostly is supposed to help a japanese AI separate warfare in the Pacific and in Asia. As a human player, you should annex them and make use of the additional IC.

@qer: It just proves your point when you want all of these ships to engage in the same 5-hour-combat within the same naval province at the same time and at full efficiency. In most cases, the naval province layout easily provides enough space to rebuild these engagements as they extend over several combats of smaller fleets over some days and provinces. That's what we built our assumptions on. Larger battles may still ensue, of course at greatly reduced efficiency. But do we exactly know how efficient those fleets really fought back then at Jutland?
Micro management is an issue, but only if you don't go for a standard size of 18 ships. That's what happens in MP games since any smaller fleet will suffer unnecessary casualties: You take two or three 18 ship-fleets and they move next to each other in adjacent provinces to either catch the enemy, distract him, block his reinforcements, being able to pursue him or secure your own retreat. You avoid sending them into the same 5-hour-engagement inside the same province, but finally they all fight the same large naval battle consisting of several engagements. The auto promotion should provide you with enough leaders for fleets of 18.

Edit: Another important reasoning for a maximum command limit of 18 ships was to give small and medium naval nations a chance against large naval powers so that they would at least consider some investment into their navies. If you just have to build a doomstack with ENG or USA to completely wipe the smaller navies of ITA or GER because they can't accumulate the same amount of ships, why should they even bother with naval warfare any more?
 

Grahe

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How much does the assault gun difers compared to Self propeled arty and Infantry suport tank? And is it worth the IC? Anyway keep up the great work i love this mod.
 

Lord Rommel

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SPG are hard unit exclusive. You can use them on soft units like infantry or motorised infantry.
StuGs were designed for soft units like infantry. They are cheaper compared to infantry tanks. They will add more soft attack compared to the light armored brigade. Light tanks add more hard attack. The light tank will reduce more softness. All in all the light tank will be a bit better against all hard units but they will cost more IC. Nations like Germany and Soviet Union have access to the StuG tech at game start so this nations are good candidates for StuG production.
Hope it will help.
 

ImaTomato

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First of all we dont want to add "slaughter everything bombers" in TRP. It dosent look real when a number of planes can annihilate an entire division within days/weeks. Furthermore is the belgian corps dug in? Dug in bonus is a problem for any bomber unit. Moving units are easy targets. TACs and CAS are also good to destroy the local infrastructure. A bombing campaign against the infrastructure might be better against the enemy.
During the Battle of France german stukas were used against the defending french to great effect.During the Battle of Sedan they played a major role in overwhelming the defenders and manged to drive defending french units out of their postions simply due to the psychological effect of the stukas.I fail to why they should be so ineffectiv against defending and dug in troops.That's why stukas existed.


--------
One other question does anyone have some tips to lower my fuel and suply TC? I started Barbarossa in march 1941 and my TC is almost completely overloaded even before start it .776 out my 965 TC is used just for my Fuel and Supply transportation and 147 for Partisans.Once I start moving my TC is completely overloaded before I even advance into russia.I have Deep Logistics and I don't see any other way to increase my TC part from building more IC(currently at 356 Base).This means that my offensive is extremely slow which makes it hard to properly encircle enemy divisons.
 

Grahe

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Thank you @Lord Rommel. Just started one playthrought as germany so I wanted to know that.
 

Grahe

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During the Battle of France german stukas were used against the defending french to great effect.During the Battle of Sedan they played a major role in overwhelming the defenders and manged to drive defending french units out of their postions simply due to the psychological effect of the stukas.I fail to why they should be so ineffectiv against defending and dug in troops.That's why stukas existed.


--------
One other question does anyone have some tips to lower my fuel and suply TC? I started Barbarossa in march 1941 and my TC is almost completely overloaded even before start it .776 out my 965 TC is used just for my Fuel and Supply transportation and 147 for Partisans.Once I start moving my TC is completely overloaded before I even advance into russia.I have Deep Logistics and I don't see any other way to increase my TC part from building more IC(currently at 356 Base).This means that my offensive is extremely slow which makes it hard to properly encircle enemy divisons.
Techs mostly and some infrastructure or Police brigades in rear lines to distrupt partisans. But if you want to keep it low just dont use strategic redeployment it uses a lot TC.
Put divisions on offensive this keeps some supply on those troops for some time and they should retain some of that much needed speed.
+ they fight a bit beter and gain ORG faster
 

Lord Rommel

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During the Battle of France german stukas were used against the defending french to great effect.During the Battle of Sedan they played a major role in overwhelming the defenders and manged to drive defending french units out of their postions simply due to the psychological effect of the stukas.I fail to why they should be so ineffectiv against defending and dug in troops.That's why stukas existed.
That is well known. We know all those points. But during the battle of Sedan (or any other battle) divisions werent annihilated by air attacks only. Furthermore i think u have chosen the wrong scenario here because at Sedan StuKas destroyed the "fortified positions" and not the soldiers. StuKas destroyed bunkers, artillery positions, second line formations and any other "hard targets". So the Stukas have soften the defense of the french forces. In HoI terms these are missions against installations, fortresses and other aspects. StuKas were good against moving units in open fields or against point targets like tanks and artillery positions.
To sum it up: Stukas are still effective weapons. There is no reason to enforce the performance of Stukas (CAS in general) against dug in troops.
BUT of be honest we will investigate the performance of air units. We will try to enforce the quality of our combat system and unit stats. So there is a small chance that we will adjust the stats of air force units. For the moment we have to evaluate what we have to adjust. So your feedback is important. Thank you very much.

One other question does anyone have some tips to lower my fuel and suply TC? I started Barbarossa in march 1941 and my TC is almost completely overloaded even before start it .776 out my 965 TC is used just for my Fuel and Supply transportation and 147 for Partisans.Once I start moving my TC is completely overloaded before I even advance into russia.I have Deep Logistics and I don't see any other way to increase my TC part from building more IC(currently at 356 Base).This means that my offensive is extremely slow which makes it hard to properly encircle enemy divisons.
You wont be able to get a positive TC ration in a war. That is part of the TRP design. You have to find ways to reduce the TC and to optimise your supply efficiency.
 

phordor001

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Just starting my 1st game. Love the added news articles. Lots of fun to read and informative. Can't wait to see how your changes / additions mess up my battle plan (that's my favorite part). Now I have to think more (good for the brain). Note on some previous comments. I like the command limits as they are. I like the smaller fleets for coverage. I try to keep a higher limit commander or 2 in charge of the smaller fleets in case several of the smaller fleets get end up together in a battle somewhere. I use CAS and TAC's in combination to reduce org and get casualties, switching more to attack mode as the org goes down. It takes a badly depleted unit (s) quite some time to get back up to full strength. When the situation permits I will try to eliminate the unit with air attacks. Takes a long time and IC to build a new one and then get them deployed.

You guys do a great job. Outstanding!!!!!!!
 

qer

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Just to be clear i'am enjoying quite a lot your mod , as to not seem as a hater

But, you need to revise the hard attacks values. Currently At > Art for fighting everything (including inf) same for Inftank vs assault guns.this is due to yhe way combat work in DH. I suppose the basic mechanism of hit/ miss is understood so I would skip that. The aspect I'm focusing is hardness. If you hit a unit with a SA, it does full strength and org damage. However hardiness may reduce the amount of damage received by their percentage. HA always does full damage. Thus, hard attack is effective both against 100% soft targets and 0% softness targets. In the mod the amount of HA that at guns give, combined with their soft attack, makes then always superior to art. The way to balance this would be to: a) nerf the attachments so that they give the same amount of hits as other ones (So as in vanilla, H tank giving more HA but less SA than Mtank so that it balances) or boosting up SA value of the uncompetitive units
 

DerStudti

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@qer:
Don't worry, constructive criticism is what a modder needs to spot and fix the weak points. :)

As far as our understanding of the combat mechanics goes, softattack and hardattack values aren't added up, at least when you use the traditional HoI2 mechanics like we do. (We conducted a whole lot of test runs and even had a closer look at the relevant code lines to confirm this assumption when we reworked our combat system some years ago.) Instead, the higher value of both is what counts. You are correct that hard attack might also be called "universal attack" since it works against both soft and hard defensive aspects, but it basically just defines the proportion of guaranteed full-efficiency hits.
(This is far from a comprehensive depiction of how battles are calculated, but it essentially comes down to this. Our complete team internal breakdown of what's happening during one single attack round covers several pages of text...and it's in german, which might further complicate the issue. ;) )

Long story made short: We think that our values do just what they are supposed to do. :)

--------------------

Public service announcement


There is a new hotfix for Darkest Hour (Version 1.05.1) that fixes some errors in the EXE file itself.

We can confirm that this hotfix doesn't seem to conflict with TRP 1.04. Even the checksum doesn't change.