Tributary Rush

[The Founder]

With the buffs to Spaceports and the rework of corvette weapons, early conquest rushes no longer work. The Spaceport is simply to tough to engange with less then 30 corvettes. However I was recently forced to develop what I call the "Tributary Rush" style.
This style might become very interesting with the 1.5 patch. As Domination in the current Lifestream itteration actually features a lot of related bonuses:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/traditions-info-from-the-live-stream.997764/


I played as the stock Tzynn (Fanatic Militarist, Colectivist, Non-Adaptable, Talented, Military Dictatorship). And as luck had it, I was boxed in on all 4 sides:
South was teh galactic core.
west a Pacifist/Fan Spiritualist
east Federation builder (Individualist, Xenophile, Militarist).
North had no habitable planet for lightyears. And that was after the shortage the Tzynn traits caused.

All I could grab were the 2 guaranteed planets. Not the best basis to conquer the universe. But it did result in the following play:
1. I rushed grabbing both planets. However I did not develop them past teh Ship shelter stage. Indeed I kept investment low, focuss primarily on minerals and food (to earn more minerals).
2. I did not invested into spaceports or the T1 Capitol.
3. After that was settled, I hit armsrace on my Capitol Planet (Tzynn). Upgraded port to T2 with Corvette yard. And started churning out 20 corvettes.
4. Now I started take extra-homesystem spacemines to trigger the pirates. I somewhat botched that one: There station was snacked up by the Pacifist. And I lost the station they had targeted.
5. Now I waited and build ground forces.
6 The pacifist finally build thier first colony. That was my signal.
7. I decalred a war of "Make Tributary" on the pacifist. It was a rather cheap goal. And indeed the new colony alone almost gave me enough warscore to force it and Humiliation. And the colony had no defense - 2 garissions.
8. The enemy fleet did not engage mine. Turned out that between Fanatic Militarist, Kinetics and Level 2 Unyielding admiral, my fleet was about 50% stronger then the AI's fleet. So it of course avoided conflict outside of the port.
9. When I retreated to repair after grabbing the planet (and killed a few stations), they came out. I killed thier fleet.
10. After that, they gave up. And became my tributary.

Where did that leave me?
3 Plantes (+1 Primitive I had snatched up during the war) to build up.
1 pacifist Tributary. Pacifist are the best tributary - thier extra happyness means they produce more resources to tax. And they are less likely to rebel due to unhappiness/personality values. And they are happy not being dragged into your wars.

Using thier resources, I build up my planets, ports and armada.
Later I pulled the same trick on the Federation builder: Again a single undefended new colony was all I needed to grab for them to become my Tributary. This ime my fleet power was in excess of thiers, so they hardly put up a fight.

I ended up having so many resoruces, I could afford to become paton of the arts/scientist help at the same time and have the savings to afford the Ministery of Benevolence once it appeared. All while building up my planets with T2 buildings and building Destroyers.
It took me a while to get Frontier Comissars after that. Ended up having to hire a curator scientist to get it (no New Worlds scientist). Only after I had Frontier Comissars (thanks to curator) and the MoB did I start to conquer my "faithfull Tributaries" (to be fair, I consider the ability to attack a Tributary to be a bug). I now had the Divergence to integrate even pacifists and Individualists. I am now up to 12 planets. Only 3 are actually my investment.

The moral of the story?
Do not understimate the cost of building up to T1 buildings in a colony. I used to do that for a while. Even if I usually was smart enough to use Infrastructure Projects to streamline it.
Do not understimate the value of "Make Tributary", once the enemy has a undefended early colony. That colony might be enough to make him surrender on his own.
Do not hesitate to make a Pacifist tributary. They make excellent resource generators. And might be too much trouble early game anyway.

 

[Playwars]

That's interesting, to say the least, personnaly when I go for an early tributary I use hit and run tactics, simply nuke down all of their stations, attack colonies here and there, and try to grab the victory as fast as I can.
However, there is only 1 upgrade in the "Domination" tradition path that affects tributaries, I'm not sure it'll make a huge difference.

 

[The Founder]

That's interesting, to say the least, personnaly when I go for an early tributary I use hit and run tactics, simply nuke down all of their stations, attack colonies here and there, and try to grab the victory as fast as I can.
However, there is only 1 upgrade in the "Domination" tradition path that affects tributaries, I'm not sure it'll make a huge difference.

I see the following bonuses to this playstyle in Domination:
Starter: -25% War Score cost for subjugation
Perk 1 right: Vassals have +20 Opinion and can be integrated 50% sooner
Perk 2 left: +10% income from tributaries
Perk 2 middle: Vassals increase your naval capacity by 20% of their own capacity
Finisher: +30% Research speed for techs your vassals have

Currentlöy there is a difference between Vassal and Tributary. But I am not sure there should be - overall Tributary does seem quite bugged right now. Can't force into Vassalage. Can't invite into war (even to give them thier species lands). But can totally still declare war on? If aquired via war, a free Guarantee of Independance will be singed until you next declare war.
Even if that divide is very strict, there would still be 2 Bonuses: Starter and +10% income.

 

[Playwars]

I see the following bonuses to this playstyle in Domination:
Starter: -25% War Score cost for subjugation
Perk 1 right: Vassals have +20 Opinion and can be integrated 50% sooner
Perk 2 left: +10% income from tributaries
Perk 2 middle: Vassals increase your naval capacity by 20% of their own capacity
Finisher: +30% Research speed for techs your vassals have

Currentlöy there is a difference between Vassal and Tributary. But I am not sure there should be - overall Tributary does seem quite bugged right now. Can't force into Vassalage. Can't invite into war (even to give them thier species lands). But can totally still declare war on? If aquired via war, a free Guarantee of Independance will be singed until you next declare war.
Even if that divide is very strict, there would still be 2 Bonuses: Starter and +10% income.

Tributaries aren't your subject, they never had and never will, they are people you bullied into giving you money, at least it seems to be what Paradox is going for in Stellaris, as seen from the AE and our own wargoals.

 

[The Founder]

Tributaries aren't your subject, they never had and never will, they are people you bullied into giving you money, at least it seems to be what Paradox is going for in Stellaris, as seen from the AE and our own wargoals.

I also read in the UI text.

Feel free to use anything in this album if you want screenshots of each of them!

Though I keep updating it as new info comes up so the images might break every so often.

The on for Protection Racket (+10% income from Tributaries) does speak of them as "Vassals" and explicitly mentioned actuall protection.
The Domination finisher actully uses the more generic word "Subject", rather then Vassals.

While nothing is quit finished yet, I see quite some potential for Tributary/Vassal being change relevantly iin 1.5.
Longterm I would love to see them being turned into something closer to the CK Vassal System. Or maybe something similar to the Species Rights (general settings, that you can override on a case by case basis).

And one of the Perks of the Tradition is still a blank. Could easily be something like "Tributaries count as Vassals"

 

[elitesix]

Actually, you can still reliably rush one bordering nation super early within the first three years. What you do is you defensive platform rush them.


You only need like 3 more corvettes than they have. Usually going in the first three years with 10 corvette works. You design defense platforms that repair and house scout wings, as well as an FTL inhibitor one with scout wings. You build like 3-4 of the repair platforms and 1 of the FTL inhibitor in their home system in range of their spaceport. It's hard at first to gauge the range of the scout wings - practice helps a lot - but the wings do outrange the space port weapons range and you can build these platforms without engaging the enemy's port. Usually if you have 3 scout wing platforms in range of their space port, their port dies within a year.

It's not a quick war, but you can reliably win a war within the first six to ten years before any really gets any colonies going. It's slow though, and you don't really get to snowball off of it because you do miss out on the colony rush.

 

[Drakonn]

Tributaries aren't your subject, they never had and never will, they are people you bullied into giving you money, at least it seems to be what Paradox is going for in Stellaris, as seen from the AE and our own wargoals.

That's how I assumed they were to be thought of as well. Empires you had beaten but not conquered enough to subjugate.

Currentlöy there is a difference between Vassal and Tributary.

The Domination tree really lacks in Tributary bonuses. Extorting slaves, ships, or whatever else out of them through the tree would help. Something to make it feel as if you're really exacting a price out of another Empire

However, if all the Domination Traditions counted for Vassals and Tributaries both then I could say okay. (I'd be sad though for nothing a little more Tributary specific)

Opinion modifier one for sure in case they made it where taking the increased taxing of the subject makes their opinion grow less of you. Granted there's a lot of balance to watch out for as Tributaries are far more independent and you might not want to be giving them the research bonus (again, opinion modifier would help if they do that)

 

[The Founder]

That's how I assumed they were to be thought of as well. Empires you had beaten but not conquered enough to subjugate.

Personally I consider Tributary to be more practical right now. 25% of thier income. Not dragging them into offensive wars. Not having to deal with the population.

As militarist conquering and converting a pacifist population would be a chore. As tributary they give you the resources. Without any of the management cost. Only t hing realy missing was the Naval Capacity transfer.
Of course we will have to see if the subject states have any influence on the subjected empire or overlods ethos attraction. I see alot of leverage to differentiate them there.

 

[Beagá]

Tributaries are really nice sometimes, but they can't be bigger than 3 systems else it's a PITA to vassalize and integrate (sometimes they have ringworld or great planets in their borders, so integration should ALWAYS remain open as a possibility).

 

[The Founder]

Tributaries are really nice sometimes, but they can't be bigger than 3 systems else it's a PITA to vassalize and integrate (sometimes they have ringworld or great planets in their borders, so integration should ALWAYS remain open as a possibility).

If you got good standing (like similar Ethos and no border Pressure) you can always ask them to become Vassal.
And due to a bug, they currently can be attacked by thier overlord.

 

[Shoobs]

You can also bait enemies into attacking a spaceport, repeatedly, and just let them beat themselves into becoming annexed. I do it all the time, particularly early in the game... obviously the fleet I'm using to do this with is of a fleet power less than the spaceport. Very useful on Hard when you find an enemy very close to you.

 

[Beagá]

If you got good standing (like similar Ethos and no border Pressure) you can always ask them to become Vassal.

Yes but that's a pretty big If, considering most of the time you think on attacking someone that hates you, not a fanatic xenophile. Also the population and size malus to vassalize are Very big so no matter what, tributaries should be kept small.

 

[I am Sovereign]

Wait do only homesystem mines trigger the pirates?

Nice thread btw I will try this out with my second or third utopian playthrough. ( Thats early I have so many ideas on how to play^^)

 

[The Founder]

Wait do only homesystem mines trigger the pirates?

Nice thread btw I will try this out with my second or third utopian playthrough. ( Thats early I have so many ideas on how to play^^)

The opposite: Mines and Stations outside the homesystem trigger priates. With Frontier Ouposts counting as one of them too.
But even after that, it is only checked once per month.

You can actually delay the pirates (and thus investing into a fleet) simply by not building mines, reserach stations and frontier outpost out of your home system. More then one game I grabbed the 2 natural habitable planets (or even more) before I even considered building up my fleet.

 

[I am Sovereign]

The opposite: Mines and Stations outside the homesystem trigger priates. With Frontier Ouposts counting as one of them too.
But even after that, it is only checked once per month.

You can actually delay the pirates (and thus investing into a fleet) simply by not building mines, reserach stations and frontier outpost out of your home system. More then one game I grabbed the 2 natural habitable planets (or even more) before I even considered building up my fleet.

Ah okay missunderstanding thx ; )


Thats very intresting this makes it smarter to stay within your homesystem if the neighbouring starsystems arent that great in the first place and to invest the minerals rather into a more earlier coloship.

 

[Endless Rain]

I find that for early game wars, you can pretty easily cripple AI empires by occupying any planets without starports, and then use the warscore from those planets to demand their homeworld in a peace deal. Without their homeworld, most early game empires will have an extremely hard time catching up to you. If you're lucky, they won't even be able to build new starports by the time the truce ends, allowing you to easily get 100% warscore and annex them.

 

[Untrustedlife]

I do tributary rushes aswell.

 

[terrycloth]

Actually, you can still reliably rush one bordering nation super early within the first three years. What you do is you defensive platform rush them.


You only need like 3 more corvettes than they have. Usually going in the first three years with 10 corvette works. You design defense platforms that repair and house scout wings, as well as an FTL inhibitor one with scout wings. You build like 3-4 of the repair platforms and 1 of the FTL inhibitor in their home system in range of their spaceport. It's hard at first to gauge the range of the scout wings - practice helps a lot - but the wings do outrange the space port weapons range and you can build these platforms without engaging the enemy's port. Usually if you have 3 scout wing platforms in range of their space port, their port dies within a year.

It's not a quick war, but you can reliably win a war within the first six to ten years before any really gets any colonies going. It's slow though, and you don't really get to snowball off of it because you do miss out on the colony rush.

One platform is enough to eventually destroy the starport, and if you have your fleet lurking a distance behind it they'll kill the enemy's fleet when it's drawn into the combat and approach to take out the platform, without ever getting into combat with the starport itself. After that the enemy has no hope, because each ship they build is drawn into combat instantly and slaughtered.

You'll be at war for a long time, but there's no further *investment* needed beyond the one platform, so it doesn't slow down your colony rush too much. Also, sometimes the enemy will just surrender before their starport goes down, depending on what your demands are.