Tributaries

[Susan1972]

I'm playing Khmer and I'm trying to follow the mission trree regarding Dai Viet. Only, Ming will defend them if I attack.

Why? Okay, it was possibly a mistake to cancel my tributary status, but when I'm playing Ming, anyone can attack my tributaries and I'm never called in and there isn't even a "Defend Tributary" cb I can use if I want to pitch in.

And yet, they can and will attack me. I can't even reestablish the tributary status due to a -2000 malus (not neighbors and strategic interests so how did I start off as a tributary in the first place?) but that never matters when I'm Ming anyway.

Why can Ming defend it's tributaries when I'm not playing them but I can't do so when I am?

EDIT: Is the campaign pretty much over now? It's 1474 and I have no means to expand and it's only a matter of time untill one of my enemies uses Ming to crush me (which, again, I couldn't do but I just know the AI will be able to).

 

[Uskayaw]

Overlord can't interfere in wars between subjects. In this case you aren't a subject.

 

[cuendillar]

Tributary overlordship works like a guarantee that doesn't apply to other tributaries of the same overlord. Thus, if a non-tributary attacks one of Ming's tributaries they will get called in but there's no way for them to be called in after the declaration itself happened.

This means that the only time when you can guarantee that Ming won't interfer is when you are either their tributary or you're already at war with them in another conflict.

If it's possible for you, declare a war on the weakest Ming tributary available and occupy them ASAP. When they're willing to accept white peace, declare on Dai Viet and Ming won't be able to join since you're already at war. Then peace out from the first war on the next day and Ming won't be able to help the Vietnamese.

 

[Susan1972]

But how can Ava, for example, rage on throughout Cambodia when I'm Ming and I don't even get a pop up notice about it?

 

[necro84]

Do they attack tributaries directly? Maybe it's through alliances. Not all nations there are tributaries

You don't see the popup because many nations don't want to declare on tributary directly

 

[AvengedK1ng]

But how can Ava, for example, rage on throughout Cambodia when I'm Ming and I don't even get a pop up notice about it?

Maybe ai is attacking them

 

[Manwe_Sulimo]

Tributary is only defensive, they can't call in Ming when they attack you.
Ava's neighbours are not tributaries of Ming iirc.
As mentioned a tributary can be called in into wars of non-tributaries, then Ming is not involved.
As a player you won't get the notifiation, because nobody attacks one of your tributaries (directly), they are held off by you getting called in.

You could try to expand southwards or on the islands, maybe go for colonies.

 

[Susan1972]

Well, looks like I'll have to try, try try again. thanks!

 

[MatthewP]

Well, looks like I'll have to try, try try again. thanks!

This is probably the right answer. Being a Ming tributary is generally a good thing. But you do have the option of attacking allies of your real target and taking land as a non-cobelligerent, and/or just expanding away from Ming’s sphere until you’re strong enough to take them on.

 

[Saat98]

I've just finished an Ayutthaya -> Siam campaign. Really, you should never never break your tributary status with Ming. Besides being able to attack other tributaries, you can expand out of Ming's sphere of influence without risking a coalition (because Ming will defend you). After a while, if Ming trusts in you, you can miss some of the tributes without Ming abandoning you.

Also, breaking your tributary status costs you 1 stab, while waiting for your overlord to cancel it costs nothing. Your overlord will cancel the relation if you are too strong compared to him or if you miss a lot of tributes and his trust gets under 40 or 50.

 

[necro84]

Well, looks like I'll have to try, try try again. thanks!

You can try to become tributary again but you need to share the border with Ming. There are a few ways to do this
- ally nation neighboring Dai Viet and hope they will call you to arms, then make a separate peace for one province next to Ming, Lan Xang is the best for this at the beginning
- find small tributary of Ming with other allies that aren't tributary, declare on the ally but vassalize tributary. Use size land to get province bordering Ming. Sarig Yogir starts with two provinces and you can seize Anding to get the border, Mong Mao also starts with two provinces next to Ming

At the beginning it's easier to restart but sometimes finding the solution is more rewarding.
Also this can be helpful when you start as nation like Lan Na - you start surrounded by tributaries of Ming or Ava but you aren't tributary so you'll be fighting a stronger opponent and the best way is to become tributary of Ming as soon as possible