Tributaries need to be remade and they ruin East Asia

[durbal]

1. Become Ming tributary
2. Fight with everyone. Annex as much as you can.
3. Not care about anything because AE/diplomacy/everything else don't matter since Ming can't do anything to do since you're a subject and and all non-tributaries can't do anything to you because you're Ming's subject.
4. Stop being tributary and eat Ming after mandate tanks.

C'mon. I just conquered 500+ dev as Oirat in 20 years and there's nothing anyone can do. Mandate of Heaven essentially removed all EU4 gameplay in that region because you can just do whatever you want without repercussions if you're a tributary and you can't do anything if you're not.

Tributaries really need to not be subjects in game terms. Tributary status should work like transfer trade power in that the overlord prefers receiving it, the country giving it cannot be attacked, and there's an opinion modifier -- but it can be revoked at any time and war can be declared immediately after. Enforcing tributary status should work like enforcing transfer trade power too so it can't just be revoked right away (or did they patch that out?).

 

[darth254]

I am not historically keen on how China treated its tributaries (did they offer military protection), but you seem to recommend changing it from a symbiotic to a parasitic relationship. Was the Chinese tributary system parasitic in practice? If it was, I'm all for what you recommended. If not, maybe tinker in some other way. I understand the issue though with how easy it is to game.

 

[durbal]

I am not historically keen on how China treated its tributaries (did they offer military protection), but you seem to recommend changing it from a symbiotic to a parasitic relationship. Was the Chinese tributary system parasitic in practice? If it was, I'm all for what you recommended. If not, maybe tinker in some other way. I understand the issue though with how easy it is to game.

The Chinese tributary system wasn't parasitic, but tributaries as they are modeled now for China don't work as they did historically anyway. Tributaries also need to work for all eastern religions and hordes, keep in mind.

Not to mention the silliness that occurs with stuff like having OPM tributaries giving you signifiantly more in tribute than they would provide as a fully-annexed and stated province. It's just a broken, exploitable, and cancerous gameplay system as it is now.

 

[Rabid]

I am not historically keen on how China treated its tributaries (did they offer military protection), but you seem to recommend changing it from a symbiotic to a parasitic relationship. Was the Chinese tributary system parasitic in practice? If it was, I'm all for what you recommended. If not, maybe tinker in some other way. I understand the issue though with how easy it is to game.

The current system isn't accurate at all, the fact that Chinese tributaries are treated the same way as states subjugated by hordes is completely rediculous. There should be no automatic CtA and the benefits to China should be that it gives them prestige, mandate, etc. rather than allowing them to extract resources from their tributaries. IRL gifts sent in response to tribute given were often richer than the original tribute!

Ideally there would be some link between tributary status and trade and direct military intervention in wars should be something which happens only rarely - but there's a lot of ways in which the current system could be improved both for gameplay and historicial accuracy and there's plenty of different potential redesigns that Paradox could use.

 

[rauyran]

I think there need to be some additional disincentives to becoming and remaining a tributary. It should be seen as a humiliating position to be in. There needs to be a malus to prestige and legitimacy/unity and potentially also to absolutism (since the ruler is undermined by having to bend the knee to the overlord)

 

[KaiserWilhelmI]

The yearly tribute should also be changed. For example during the Ming era Japan sent tribute only once every ten years. And most tributaries actually only ever sent tributes once or twice.

 

[AJ123]

Changes I would make:

1. If you are a great power, you can't request to be their tributary. No more Russia or Otto becoming a tributary to eat Asia.

2. If you are a tributary and conquer other tributary lands, Ming should be able to demand you return provinces, similar Unlawful Territory. Why would Ming let one tributary become so powerful? Ming should get a CB on you if you refuse. You can avoid Ming doing this to you by having good relations. Still allows you to expand, but you hit a stopping point once your AE with Ming is high enough.

3. As soon as Ming gets an outraged opinion of you, it should cancel tributary status and get a truce with you. This is your warning that you now have to fight Ming.

 

[Bibor]

Condering how limited logistics were in EU4 timeframe, China could hardly intervene militarily beyond Indochina and even invading Japan would be a stretch.
The benefits should be mutual legitimacy, trade income and spread of technological advances/institutions, not defensive pacts that break the game. Even without its tributaries, Ming china still takes like 10 or more wars to fully conquer and you have to be actually economically stronger than Ming to pull it off.

Currently the "Ming tax" caps at 12 points per year, which is hardly noticable (just an additional edict I guess), but at some point they start demanding money again as points are actualy cheaper (I had a tribute demand as high as 460 ducats). In return, you get virtual immunity from coalitions. A bargain.
Currently the only downside of being a tributary is that you cannot enjoy some benefits of the empire rank and you can't be a major power.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I think there need to be some additional disincentives to becoming and remaining a tributary. It should be seen as a humiliating position to be in. There needs to be a malus to prestige and legitimacy/unity and potentially also to absolutism (since the ruler is undermined by having to bend the knee to the overlord)

Tributary does block great power status and that does reduce max absolutism. As Golden Horde I had to cancel it or else getting + 20 from court and country would have been impossible, as would capping at 100 later.

Super stable Ming rivaling the player with 4x his development and 3x his active standing army was more cancerous than the current mechanic (and was at least as ahistorical)...bad enough that despite my misgivings about tributary system as it stands I still grade it as significantly better.

Having tributaries as eastern religions/hordes is helpful, too. In particular it makes Eastern religions less trash.