Tributaries and the Mandate of Heaven - Issues and Concerns

[ghengilhar]

So, I'm just about to complete an ironman Scotland run (it's going amazingly thanks to the bucket-load of money I make from trade) and I wanted to talk about some issues and concerns I am seeing in every game since the China re-work. The tributaries and the mandate are both way too powerful and the negatives are non-existent.

Number 1: The tributaries. Ming usually pickets these up like steam games on sale, they usually end up with a lot of very powerful tributaries or have a situation where you are unable to expand into south-east Asia or India without having to fight 500k Ming-stacks. I understand that it's a challenge but I feel that Ming's push into India and having a powerful stepp tribe or Korea as a tributary is troubling. I think the way it should work is for the AI to avoid making tributes from India unless they have the same culture group as the Emperor. I also think that there should be impacts to tech if they have too many large and powerful tributes, to mimic inward perfection. Now, I've not played Ming yet so if these already exists then they need to be buffed.

Number 2: Losing the Mandate gives no real negative stability. I tried this in a Russia run previously, rob them of their tributary shield and watch the mandate drop. When it hit zero, nothing happened. No big rebellions, no loss in income and no reduction in troop quality. I feel that losing the mandate should be catastrophic for Ming. At a minimum their moral should tank and at a maximum it should trigger mass revolts, after all when it happened in real life Qing swept into power.

Overall I understand these unique mechanics and I enjoy the fact that there's a totally different way to play within the game but I feel that for all the positives that it adds the negatives should be as powerful. From what we can see in the new DLC they'll be updates to help restrict the Ottomans and I feel that this is in direct response to their own DLC. Perhaps the one following Cradle of Civilization will have some nerfs added to it.

 

[AirikrStrife]

there are a lot of people complaining about Ming op:ness. I think there are issues, especially early game. With Ming being to stable and that's why I want to buff the hordes. Has been gone over in several threads before. My latest thread on the matter: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...chanics-ideasgroup-buildings-bukhara.1048624/


Also want to point out that low mandate is pretty painful and has following effects:

−50% Goods produced modifier
+50% Fire damage received
+50% Shock damage received

problem is I guess Ming's size and economy is still keeping them alive fairly easy.

 

[Horn and Ivory]

I also think that there should be impacts to tech if they have too many large and powerful tributes, to mimic inward perfection.

That is a lovely balancing idea.

 

[Medicbaba]

Not just these, taking the mandate itself is simply suicide. You can't expand like Qing did in real life. Your mandate drops to zero and you lose every war.

There should be a new system for Chinese emperors to prevent this, like maybe assigning border states to ambans (like upcoming Ottoman pashas) who give different bonuses and maluses on their territory. If a country managed to break through to the China proper, the mandate would start dropping. With the current system, you can't even expand past Mongolia.

 

[Calad]

Problems are that initial hit of losing mandate is very severe and lack of mandate is game crippling. You cant even give up your form of government!

Tributary system would make more sense of nations only bordering you by land or same sea zone could became tributaries, now it can be simple spammed without penalties.

 

[Bebou]

I have to agree with the Tributary system being inherently flawed and becoming the Emperor of China, rather than being a bonus, is in my opinion a curse. You can't really expand as you need your tributaries to keep the Mandate up, and eventually you will end up next to countries that are simply too big to force as a tributary over and over like Russia and Ottomans.

It just feels like some aspects should be changed or there should be some way to permanently solidify your mandate. Whenever I play Qing I respectfully ignore the Mandate of Heaven, except as a tool for expansion and a great CB. The Mandate made my Yuan run practically unplayable and extremely unpleasant.

 

[ghengilhar]

there are a lot of people complaining about Ming op:ness. I think there are issues, especially early game. With Ming being to stable and that's why I want to buff the hordes. Has been gone over in several threads before. My latest thread on the matter: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...chanics-ideasgroup-buildings-bukhara.1048624/


Also want to point out that low mandate is pretty painful and has following effects:

−50% Goods produced modifier
+50% Fire damage received
+50% Shock damage received

problem is I guess Ming's size and economy is still keeping them alive fairly easy.

Yeah, I completely agree, up until the 18th century (and beyond in some areas) the hordes should be unconquerable to anyone who isn't also from the same area. The issue I feel with Ming is that they are huge which is realistic, they are rich and powerful which is also realistic. The only issue is the AI and the players usually turn this wealth into turning themselves into a powerhouse completely negating the chance that they may lose the mandate.

Maybe what should also happen is when Ming is losing mandate power the hordes can get special missions to raid the declining empire forcing the Ming to try and protect itself and meaning it gives a chance for tributes to break free or be targeted by powerful high-tech nations

 

[Zohtun]

Another unrealistic thing is the AI's willingness to just sit under Ming eternally. In real life any time China went into distress, the tributaries would vanish until a new Emperor wrested control of the dragon throne, at which point they'd kowtow before the new overlord. In EU4 the Ming can use their tributes as a crutch to recover from a falling mandate, tributes which should have gone "HA HA LATERS" the moment the Mandate dropped below 50 (after all, why should they respect an Emperor who cannot hold Heaven's grace/Has no ability to enforce their power over them?).
Only the nations on the borders of Ming proper should even consider sticking put (as they would fear the repercussions more than, say, a pseudo-Indian/SE Asia nation) and any horde larger than a few provinces hordes should've begun raiding their weakened super-neighbor.

Which is why raiding as a horde should be a thing but that's another subject.