Tribes and smaller countries need more levies

[PAnZuRiEL]

The minimum of 4 levies isn't really enough for smaller countries to have even a hope of surviving. Small tribes and city states should be levying more like 50% of their pops.

I propose a larger levy bonus for tribes (they currently get what, 5%?) as well as a bonus that scales down with country status -- great powers get no bonus or even a small penalty, while city states get something really substantial like 25%. That should make it much harder to steamroll over leagues of smaller countries, as well as preventing situations where a war stalls indefinitely because the surviving army can't siege down any forts.

 

[Pro]

Is that the actual problem? Or is the problem that the tribal areas have too little population?

Ireland at the start of the game has 124 pops in all its territories, including the uncolonized ones. That's only slightly more than three time as many as in the territory of Syracuse (the city itself that is). was the population really that low? I know the population density was lower than further south, but was it really that low?

 

[Autonomous]

Is that the actual problem? Or is the problem that the tribal areas have too little population?

Ireland at the start of the game has 124 pops in all its territories, including the uncolonized ones. That's only slightly more than three time as many as in the territory of Syracuse (the city itself that is). was the population really that low? I know the population density was lower than further south, but was it really that low?

You're not going to find reliable population numbers for Ireland in the fourth century BCE. Maybe some estimate based on theoretical carrying capacity, but it'll be shaky as all hell.

Maddison has an estimate for the British Isles in toto at 800k in 1 CE, with numbers of 8m and 2m for (within their modern borders) Italy and Greece at that time, respectively. The table on Wikipedia (I think from Frier?) roughly agrees with this (it's defining "Greece" and "Italy" differently), though it does not address Britannia. The first figure Maddison gives for Ireland by itself is 800k... but that's in 1500 CE.

800k for the isles would imply a population density of 2.5 persons per square kilometre, which would be very low compared to the densities listed for the other regions of the barbarian west in the Wikipedia table. At 2.5 p/km2 Ireland would have had a population of 200k~ ish, about 1/40th of the combined population of the in-game regions of Cisalpine Gaul, Italia and Magna Graeca. Something more in-line with the densities for other regions would be 5 p/km2, or 400k total- 1/20th of Italy.

Though this is of course at the turn of the millennium, and the game starts three hundred years earlier.

In game, I find a total population for Ireland, including uncolonised regions, of 124 pops. For Italy, meaning the three regions of Cisalpine Gaul, Italia and Magna Graeca, including the uncolonised portion of Corsica, I find 3406. This is a ratio of 1:27... which falls between our extrapolation from Maddison and that from Frier. Closer to the latter (higher) value than the former, in fact.

You could of course make an argument for densities closer to that of Gaul (so a ratio with Italy nearer 1:10)... but Gaul was fairly rich, agriculturally.

 

[Hannibal_theCannibal]

So assuming @Autonomous has the numbers right and the total number of pops is not an issue, then we bounce back to the idea that tribes need buffing, else get steamrolled too quickly. I don't know about the figures and the balance but an increase levy size to tribes (and maybe city states) doesn't seem crazy to me.

 

[Samitte]

So assuming @Autonomous has the numbers right and the total number of pops is not an issue, then we bounce back to the idea that tribes need buffing, else get steamrolled too quickly. I don't know about the figures and the balance but an increase levy size to tribes (and maybe city states) doesn't seem crazy to me.

The total number of pops is a big issue, though I don't know if it is for Ireland as well. As a comparison, the population of the Mesopotamia region should be about 10x that of Rome (the TAG, not the city). Yet it has only 2.30 (ish, math is not my strong suit) times that population, and I am using a (quite) low estimate for that region here. Heck, even if you were to give the Seleukids Adiabene, Parthia, Arachosia, and Bactria, they only reach a population that about covers the Mesopotamia region + a chunk of Assyria if we are to compare it to Rome's population. And thats with a big chunk of Armenia its not meant to have in the first place.

And I know, pops are an abstraction, they are not based on actual hard numbers, et cetera. But the gigantic numbers by which pops are off do present big issues. Because even when you keep those abstractions in mind, it still means the rest of the world is basically nerfed really hard, but by varying degrees. Bactria is not impacted as much as the rest of the Seleukid lands, for example, missing only about 300-500ish of its relative pops (if we use Rome as baseline). Egypt on the other hand, is missing at a minimum half its population. This has a big impact on these states that carries over in all other aspects of the game.

Now of course, giving the Seleukids 4000 pops in the Mesopotamia region alone would not be possible with the current way the game is balanced and made (and because half the region has been given bad terrain, literally not possible in terms of popcap either). But those are then issues that should be resolved.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

@Samitte
idea to fix the POP ratio:

1. double the pop numbers in Mesopotamia

• upgrade some tiles to make space for them, e.g. Babylon from city to metropolis)
• make Persis a Satrapy (ruled by the Frataraka family) for balance
• the Seleucids would be buffed.

2. half the pop numbers in Rome

• downgrade some other cities in Latium to settlements
• adjust Rome’s borders with Sabinia (details here)
• Make Neapolis a client state instead of owning it.
• make Daunia a client state instead of owning it.
• fix Marsia’s culture and pops (should be Sabellian not Roman.)

This would nerf Rome somewhat, addressing the complains that Rome expands too fast in 2.0.

 

[Samitte]

upgrade some tiles to make space for them, e.g. Babylon from city to metropolis)

Other then Babylon, the cities of Borsippa, Sippar, Larsa, Uruk, Girsu, Marad, Nippur, Opis, Kutha, Kish, and the place caled Dabrum in game + some 20-30ish other cities some we have no name for also existed in the area. Uruk was especially large at the start, but in decline. Larsa and Dabrum? too seem to have been quite big. And the amount of cities in the area + the lower Diyala plain (the Sittacene area and north of Chaldaea area) grew even further during the game's timeframe, with maybe as many as 40-60 small cities and a bunch of big ones.


Ktesiphon, Bagdata and Vologesias were not cities yet. Artemita might have been. Seleucia also was not that big yet and might not even have been founded, and would take several decades to get big, since its likely mostly a construction site still.

make Persis a Satrapy (ruled by the Frataraka family) for balance

Reasonably accurate short term solution, especially since the frataraka's of Persis seem to have moved towards independence just like Bactria and Parthia did.

downgrade some other cities in Latium to settlements

And some terrain. For example: Ostia was a salt Marsh and certainly not a city. And in general there were a lot more marshes and forests in Italy.

 

[walti921]

I feel like some kind of empire sprawl penalty affecting loyalty and levy sizes could be useful. While at the same time increasing base levy size.
That way smaller city states and tribes could raise more than 2000 men, whilst majors have diminishing returns for blobbing and higher rebellion chances.

I feel like legions should help mitigate this. At present, it wierds me out that having professional armies is a net loss in total military strength.

The Marian reforms were historically precisely to deal with Roman military stagnation due to the difficulty of controlling a large empire with levied armies.

 

[Spike05]

The minimum of 4 levies isn't really enough for smaller countries to have even a hope of surviving. Small tribes and city states should be levying more like 50% of their pops.

I propose a larger levy bonus for tribes (they currently get what, 5%?) as well as a bonus that scales down with country status -- great powers get no bonus or even a small penalty, while city states get something really substantial like 25%. That should make it much harder to steamroll over leagues of smaller countries, as well as preventing situations where a war stalls indefinitely because the surviving army can't siege down any forts.

Hi, have you took a peek on my suggestion? maybe there's something you'll like

(small) Military rework

Hi fellows senators, I'm here to propose a motion to increase fun by playing small tags, without removing the intended actual (im)balance. As always my suggestion as kept as simple as possible and could be integrated in the game by the devs with...

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