Tribal feudalisation with Holy Fury questions

[Podtxt]

Hello, I usually like to start at earliest possible date as a pagan tribal and make my way slowly to feudal realm. I played many campaigns like that, now with the Holy Fury I tried to do this again.

Idea for this playthrough was to feudalise as fast as it will be possible.
After some years I have already reformed faith and met all requirements for Adopt Feudalism decision. However I want to share some questions/concers and ask about your opinion about them. Let's just keep in mind I'm not doing this for a first time, I have a lot of money to spend and strong allies to protect me when my realm will be weak. If this is of any importance I'm playing on Very Difficult.

1. New requirement for Castle is weird. Before you had to have 4th lvl stone fort. Now it's only Chief's Hall or something like that, for 200 prestige which is FAR easier to get for tribals than few houndreds gold for fort, but there is a limit of Construction technology (2 buildings/level). AI often builds up to the limit blocking all building slots and Barony stays a tribal village.

2. New buildings are all the same for me. No matter what you build it will give you some low amount of army, too low in numbers to have serious effect on battle composition, and if you consider this is tribal realm that can muster thousands of cheap soldiers, the difference is even more insignificant. Seriously, I just started buildings things at random.

3. No option to improve earnings from castles. I'm I not seeing/understanding something here? Because after transforming my villages into castles the income is very, extremely low, and I have money prepared for first income-generating structures, but can't build them.
Income from unupgraded castles seems to be far less than from unupgraded tribal villages.
Also, how is Cultivated Land (tribal income-generating structure) upgrading into Machicolations (holes in walls to throw stones or pour hot oil on enemies)?

Summarizing, I was counting on significant improvement of very mediocre system of tribal feudalisation after Holy Fury, but I'm having less fun than before.

 

[Patriarch of Bub]

To reform you need either a lvl 4 stone hillfort or have a castle holding.
I never heard of Chuef's hall at all

"castle town" is what you are looking for. It improves income. Since you are pagan however, don't forget to raid!
For as low as the starting castle income is, it almost certainly is better than a tribe which depends on empty slots for bonuses.

"keep" increases the % of your lovies, as does your martial skill. It can get very powerful!

Cultivated land? Market village/town it should be called. Are you using mods? Or maybe an archaic version of the game i don't know about?

 

[jwalche]

To reform you need either a lvl 4 stone hillfort or have a castle holding.
I never heard of Chuef's hall at all

I was wondering if a new update was released.

 

[jwalche]

Hello, I usually like to start at earliest possible date as a pagan tribal and make my way slowly to feudal realm. I played many campaigns like that, now with the Holy Fury I tried to do this again.

Idea for this playthrough was to feudalise as fast as it will be possible.
After some years I have already reformed faith and met all requirements for Adopt Feudalism decision. However I want to share some questions/concers and ask about your opinion about them. Let's just keep in mind I'm not doing this for a first time, I have a lot of money to spend and strong allies to protect me when my realm will be weak. If this is of any importance I'm playing on Very Difficult.

1. New requirement for Castle is weird. Before you had to have 4th lvl stone fort. Now it's only Chief's Hall or something like that, for 200 prestige which is FAR easier to get for tribals than few houndreds gold for fort, but there is a limit of Construction technology (2 buildings/level). AI often builds up to the limit blocking all building slots and Barony stays a tribal village.

2. New buildings are all the same for me. No matter what you build it will give you some low amount of army, too low in numbers to have serious effect on battle composition, and if you consider this is tribal realm that can muster thousands of cheap soldiers, the difference is even more insignificant. Seriously, I just started buildings things at random.

3. No option to improve earnings from castles. I'm I not seeing/understanding something here? Because after transforming my villages into castles the income is very, extremely low, and I have money prepared for first income-generating structures, but can't build them.
Income from unupgraded castles seems to be far less than from unupgraded tribal villages.
Also, how is Cultivated Land (tribal income-generating structure) upgrading into Machicolations (holes in walls to throw stones or pour hot oil on enemies)?

Summarizing, I was counting on significant improvement of very mediocre system of tribal feudalisation after Holy Fury, but I'm having less fun than before.

It seems we are playing a very different holy fury.

But upgrades on tribal holdings are generally not as good as feudal ones. The only things I build are;

1. Lv1 Hillfort on all personally held, or will be personally held counties for increased retinue cap.
2. Lv4 Hillfort to adopt feudalism in rare cases. Usually I capture an enemy county with castle.
3. Practice ranges in beginning demesne counties to make Feint tactic available.
4. Shipyards in some cases.
5. Lv1 Weaponsmith for increased retinue cap, when I stay in tribal for very long and have tones of extra prestige. Very rare.

Summary: I build practice ranges on my beginning demesne counties. Later when I have tones of prestige and am ready to adopt feudalism pretty soon, I build Lv1 hillforts on all tribal holdings in my realm. And usually that's all I build.

 

[majdavlk]

Fastest way to feudalize is to get inherited by feudal ruler of same or higher rank.

 

[jwalche]

Fastest way to feudalize is to get inherited by feudal ruler of same or higher rank.

Fastest. But the worst. It wouldn't give you free castles, cities, and temples on all the tribal counties you personally hold.

The other way is more fun. After adopting feudalism, abdicate to your tribal heir so he can pillage them all and build tribal holdings gain.

 

[majdavlk]

Fastest. But the worst. It wouldn't give you free castles, cities, and temples on all the tribal counties you personally hold.

The other way is more fun. After adopting feudalism, abdicate to your tribal heir so he can pillage them all and build tribal holdings gain.

Thats a matter of circumstances and opinion, sometimes you need feudalism to make your realm not split or to adopt impwrialsm as fast as possible. Or maybe just want different councilor jobs right now

There is another way to get those free holdings

 

[Podtxt]

It seems we are playing a very different holy fury.

It seems so. I was sure the buildings were changed in some official update coming with Holy Fury, but as I was using some mods, I'm not sure anymore. I'll write back when I get home today and check again if mods play a role in that.

 

[Podtxt]

My version of game was broken by a mod, sorry for confusion.

I like to build my empires stone by stone, holding by holding, so losing this feeling when clicking Adopt Feudalism button is a big thing for me.
I understand the need for buffing AI after feudalisation, but I would like the buff to be stretched over time instead. Gradually falling new holding/building cost and time reduction, or a more straightforward 80% cost reduction for first City/Temple in County could work.

 

[Rockphed]

It seems we are playing a very different holy fury.

But upgrades on tribal holdings are generally not as good as feudal ones. The only things I build are;

1. Lv1 Hillfort on all personally held, or will be personally held counties for increased retinue cap.
2. Lv4 Hillfort to adopt feudalism in rare cases. Usually I capture an enemy county with castle.
3. Practice ranges in beginning demesne counties to make Feint tactic available.
4. Shipyards in some cases.
5. Lv1 Weaponsmith for increased retinue cap, when I stay in tribal for very long and have tones of extra prestige. Very rare.

Summary: I build practice ranges on my beginning demesne counties. Later when I have tones of prestige and am ready to adopt feudalism pretty soon, I build Lv1 hillforts on all tribal holdings in my realm. And usually that's all I build.

Every level of weaponsmith gives increased retinue cap.
So does level 1 of the market.

 

[BuddyLove]

Keep in mind- you don't lose your tribal retinues when you feudalize.

So you want to max them out and then take the decision- they still cost prestige and or piety to maintain, but you'll from then on only be able to build gold ones; but this generates a permanent "cheap" army for the trouble of going tribal to feudal.

 

[jwalche]

Every level of weaponsmith gives increased retinue cap.
So does level 1 of the market.

Without outright cheating, there are so much prestige you have to building the buildings and create the retinue. Weaponsmith Lv1 is as far as I have ever gone. And even that is rare.

 

[DPS]

My version of game was broken by a mod, sorry for confusion.

That's good, 'cause otherwise either I'd missed some updates or you'd gone insane.

 

[Karlington]

You do need the level 4 hillfort to upgrade a tribal holding, unless you are the holder of the empire of Russia, in which case level 2 is enough.

 

[jwalche]

You do need the level 4 hillfort to upgrade a tribal holding, unless you are the holder of the empire of Russia, in which case level 2 is enough.

It takes 10 years to max tribal organization law that is required for adopting feudalism. It would be EXTREMELY RARE that you still don't have a feudal county with castle holding in your demesne. You can use that instead of LV 4 hillfort which I have never ever built

Other than Lv1 shipyard which I would build if I get Viking age event, your money is better spent on upgrading castle buildings after adopting feudalism first, and your prestige is better spent on tribal retinue and, if you still have some, on lv 1 weapon smith. But really, you won't have enough prestige if you are not exploiting. If you are exploiting, it's not worth bothering to build even those.

In fact, I once, and only once built Lv1 weaponsmiths on all my 200 demesne counties. After doing all the clicks, I decided that I will never do that again.

 

[Karlington]

It takes 10 years to max tribal organization law that is required for adopting feudalism. It would be EXTREMELY RARE that you still don't have a feudal county with castle holding in your demesne. You can use that instead of LV 4 hillfort which I have never ever built.

Yes, I believe the benefit from the empire of Russia is mainly intended for upgrading individual counties rather than for adopting feudalism.

 

[DPS]

It takes 10 years to max tribal organization law that is required for adopting feudalism. It would be EXTREMELY RARE that you still don't have a feudal county with castle holding in your demesne. You can use that instead of LV 4 hillfort which I have never ever built

Other than Lv1 shipyard which I would build if I get Viking age event, your money is better spent on upgrading castle buildings after adopting feudalism first, and your prestige is better spent on tribal retinue and, if you still have some, on lv 1 weapon smith. But really, you won't have enough prestige if you are not exploiting. If you are exploiting, it's not worth bothering to build even those.

In fact, I once, and only once built Lv1 weaponsmiths on all my 200 demesne counties. After doing all the clicks, I decided that I will never do that again.

I disagree totally with this advice. Build up your tribal holdings as much as possible before switching.

And you can't possibly have 200 demesne counties unless you're cheesing things by going NK mode.

 

[Rockphed]

I disagree totally with this advice. Build up your tribal holdings as much as possible before switching.

And you can't possibly have 200 demesne counties unless you're cheesing things by going NK mode.

You must be new here. Cheesing things in NK mode is jwalche's entire purpose in life. Well, and accruing so much tyranny that opinions underflow.

 

[jwalche]

You must be new here. Cheesing things in NK mode is jwalche's entire purpose in life. Well, and accruing so much tyranny that opinions underflow.

With my recent nomadic play, I found that holding most of your counties under your demesne is result of just a natural and careless play. For nomads, it's not cheesing things to go into NK mode. It starts as NK mode and you don't have time and energy to come out of it.

I mean, when you have enemies to conquer, who has time to split clans or hand out your counties except when you need CB?

And when you don't hand out your counties, minor clans will rise pretty fast. You have little choice but keep surrendering since they are quite strong. Soon you have 8 minor clans with a county and 7k even troops each, and you have most of the counties. They might not like you. But they will still defend their own county and surroundings with that even troops from enemies marching to my capital.

After settling on a tribe, what motivation can you possibly have to handout your counties fast? You can wait for 10 years, build Lv1 hillforts on all of them. Raise max retinue. Adopt feudalism. And then hand out those shiny new holdings to your new vassals.

BTW, to raise max retinue, you want higher Organization tech. Since most of starting nomad/tribal counties have low tech, you are bound to move your capital to a nice feudal county with higher tech. So upgrading your current capital beyond lv1 hillfort and some practice ranges is not so useful at all.

So you end up hording all the counties until you adopt feudalism.

 

[junassa]

I don't know about the most efficient way to play but if I need prestige to upgrade I'd just raid from ships more.
Also upgrade your cultural building in your capital for better retinues.
Use scholarship focus and your spymaster to improve military organization.
1st level of market also gives a retinue boost, but that costs gold.