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theKing1988

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I only pulled in English because another user has suggested it. I could also have pulled in Spanish for that matter, that has been suggested as well. And i never claimed that an Italian HRE couldn't have some legitimacy or be appropriate, it would be really, really rare occurence though in regular gameplay, unless you are the player (in which case, you have access to the normal German HRE anyway). Louis II is a Karling and a German, so his HRE would be German, not Italian. Given that he is the example you pull in here. An Italian HRE would only happen if an Italian cultured character forms it.

Ziji doesn't necessarily want to devote attention to fringe gameplay scenarios, unless they are a pet project of his own, so i'm just being honest when i say, that an Italian HRE is unlikely to be something you're gonna see in HIP.
 

Undead Martyr

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I only pulled in English because another user has suggested it. I could also have pulled in Spanish for that matter, that has been suggested as well. And i never claimed that an Italian HRE couldn't have some legitimacy or be appropriate, it would be really, really rare occurence though in regular gameplay, unless you are the player (in which case, you have access to the normal German HRE anyway). Louis II is a Karling and a German, so his HRE would be German, not Italian. Given that he is the example you pull in here. An Italian HRE would only happen if an Italian cultured character forms it.

Ziji doesn't necessarily want to devote attention to fringe gameplay scenarios, unless they are a pet project of his own, so i'm just being honest when i say, that an Italian HRE is unlikely to be something you're gonna see in HIP.

OK, well I am not really open to considering the ideas of someone else who has not posted in this thread, at least in this context. In regards to Spain... historically the most I can think of is "Imperator Totus Hispaniae" which like Imperial dignities for the French was dependant on essentially disavowing/disdaining Holy Roman (meaning German) pretensions, owing to the lack of power/influence in that region. I have little idea as to why there would be a "Spanish Empire" in the middle ages... "Empire" in the Medieval period (or even early modern) had very specific connotations beyond mere power or dominion, referring in the Latin West specifically to Rome and being like the Mandate of Heaven an implication of Universal Dominion...

"Italian" HRE is something of a misnomer, more that I am thinking that- as a player led Italy (or for that matter a non-Italian) there should be some way to try to claim the mantle of Rome, Carolingian or otherwise- it's a rather obvious oversight especially given that the actual rulers of Italy claimed it. In essence the Lombard and Roman-Imperial crowns were linked, and that aspect is not at all touched upon.

I do intend to eventually make a submod focusing on the period/early medieval monarchies but I thought to add
 

theKing1988

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Lets just clear up some basic stuff right here. The French HRE title stuff that was added to EMF, not SWMH, is not for the titles of France. It's for French cultured characters. So an equivalent Italian HRE would be for Italian cultured characters. Foreign rulers in Italy, mainly French or German, already have plenty of access to the title that is directly related to claiming the legacy of Rome (namely the HRE, original version and French addition).

Getting that out of the way, what you seem to actually be arguing for seems to be a complete re-work of Latin Medieval Imperialism, within the mechanics of CK2, so that the de-jure Empires are discarded in the favour of making the HRE and the formation of the HRE a lot more complex and diverse, depending on the culture of the character that gets to form it. Did i get that right?

I'm not actually completely against the first part of that. Personally i've had somewhat of a disdain for the de-jure Empires, ever since it became possible to form titular Empires. The de-jure Empires seems to be against what we aim for with SWMH, to me personally at least, and i don't think much would be lost if they were removed, hence why i've actually argued for that before, when we've discussed it among the HIP devs.

As for making the HRE formation a lot more complex, well i can only imagine that it would take quite a lot of work. I'm not the most proficient event/decision modder, but that's my impression at least. And with Holy Fury looming, it doesn't seem likely that Ziji will pick up that idea, as a project of his own. When we have to start our compatching, he will have more than enough to do with, putting together our Crusades, likely from scratch, and all the other features coming with Holy Fury, that more or less requires him to start over with the corresponding parts of EMF, because the changes are so intrusive. And on top of that, we are still not running at the same activity that we have done in the past, so the possibility that we pick up users ideas has not improved.
 

Undead Martyr

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I was contemplating/had tried my hand at modding early feudal mechanics, specifically adding an early feudal government and stuff. I also was considering reworking the HRE to try to model the chaotic situation in the post-Carolingian situation. Specifically I wanted to make the HRE have a system distinct from the imperial decay mechanics, which do not make sense for it at all (unlike the Abassids or Byzantines) as it did not possess a real imperial bureaucracy or capital in this period.

The rough outline:
an early feudal government which must exert taxes through decisions, and calls its vassals to war, and is allowed to raid (and also moves its capital every ten years and has a slight demesne boost/increase to cost in building settlements, to try to reflect the itinerant monarchy of the period).
-an imperial decay like mechanic called majesty, which is tracked per ruler rather than over time, reflecting said ruler's ability to assert control over their vassals. It is set on accession by a combination of traits (strong, skilled warriors being better), crown laws, and dynasty, and affected over time by things like winning or losing battles, gaining prestige/piety, or being excommunicated. This in turn ties into other things, like requiring you to expend majesty to levy a tax on your feudal vassals via decision, or having said vassals try to invite foreign claimants if the king is weak (as happened repeatedly with Italy) or else elevating a separate anti-emperor; I would also add an event to try to crown a co ruler, as happened historically with various monarchies (including the HRE) as a potential path to de facto and then de jure centralization. The Pope, ideally, should have a massive impact on these relations, as they did historically, with an ultimate goal of trying to depict the Investiture Controversy (unfortunately the pre-investiture controversy fact of the Pope being generally appointed by the Emperor- or rather, being both appointed by him,. and approving/appointing him a la Charlemagne, is not something that can be easily modeled, especially if I wanted to say, use a Nicene Christianity pre-schism and then have them split up via event.

In regards to the HRE at game start there would be a de jure Carolingian Empire held by Louis II encompassing all of Charlemagnes Empire. All Carolingians (or de jure king vassals) have a permanent claim/casus belli against the emperor. Whoever is King of Italy/Lombardy would be able to petition the Pope for the Imperial Crown; not possessing this title would have a massive penalty to majesty, weakening the kingdom and making it much more likely for the king to be deposed or invaded.

I would also like to consider restricting or revamping forming lesser titles in the HRE- duchies should not be formed willy nilly, as their formation was (historically at least) a reflection of the development of feudalism and the disintegration of regional "stem duchies" into more formally delineated entities; this fragmentation was as much a refinement or reassessment of Imperial/Royal power as a weaking of it, indeed it often was used as a weapon by the emperors to strengthen their power (so for instance Bavaria lost Austria, Carinthia and Verona, and Spoleto was split off from Tuscany, both intended to weaken an overmighty vassal).

Italy itself could have at least one alternate Empire formable- assuming an independent Italian monarch which has max absolutism and control over Rome they could reform the Western Roman Empire. In a scenario where Italy had maintained her independence and centralized successfully it is exceedingly likely that the Italian monarch would have tried to reclaim that title, especially in a pre-Ottonian Europe.

More generally perhaps reworkingde jure formables is not a bad idea, albeit it is somewhat murky- while something of a shadow kingdom it would be too far to argue that there was not a sense, post-Charlemagne (or even pre-Charlemagne), of "Empire" encompassing the west, especially in regards to Italy herself. Whether that would be an Ottonian kingdom or something else, post 800 there was almost certainly going to be a "Holy Roman Empire" of some form or another, even if said empire was based entirely in the Italian Peninsula or out of France or Burgundy instead of the historical union between Germany and Italy. Nevertheless the current situation does suggest reflection, as the de jure setup (especially with the stem duchies being separate kingdoms... with titular duchies in their place) is awkward and belies the underlying difficulties.
 
Last edited:

Toa Kraka

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-an imperial decay like mechanic called majesty, which is tracked per ruler rather than over time, reflecting said ruler's ability to assert control over [his] vassals.
See also:
"Realm Peace" as a "Decadence-system"
What if Stability was reintroduced to CK and functioned for feudal and republican governments somewhat like Decadence does iqta governments?

Though it might sound outright identical, the causes are essentially inverted; War and other stuff causing strife and instability will push it down while being at peace for a long time and maintaining the status quo will allow it to recover. In keeping with the "inversed decadence" theme, it might be a stat from 0-100 where higher is better. War (sieges, looting, casualties and the general state of war itself) would be the primary contributor, but law changes, some events and succession would all be gnawing at it.[...]
 

Undead Martyr

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In particular I think I'd like to look into Tributaries, as they seem to be the mechanic most analogous to situations like the Lombard "power" over the southern duchies, or Poland's expansion into Bohemia, or German influence in Burgundy prior to its union with the Imperial Crown. Ideally there could be some mechanism to try to convert this to vassalage somehow after a fair bit of work- representing how for instance Germany was able to firmly integrate Italy, Burgundy, and Bohemia into her "Empire" under Otto and his successors- probably tied to an empire formation (or perhaps just having it so that if the ruling family dies out a strong king can try to invade/be invited to take up the crown). So then creating tributaries would be a way to act like Otto the Great, but would be difficult to persist beyond a single ruler, unless buttressed by an actual Imperial dominion/a dynastic inheritance.
 

Toa Kraka

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Ideally there could be some mechanism to try to convert [tributaries] to vassalage somehow after a fair bit of work
See also (sort of):
[Mod] Titular Title Assimilation

Why is this mod cool?

- Minimal, Moderate, and Extreme: A tributary can be assimilated without being vassalized.