Trent county

[cptcoco307]

Hello, does i am the only ? But i feel the county of trnt should be included in italy not bavaria. I know is a part of southern tyrol, but the culture and geogrphy said is part of italy.

Also some suggestions fr earliest book marks like 867.

A decision for the king western francia and east francia to terminate their puppet kingdom of bavaria and aquitaine. The dejure should remain, but the titles should be abolished like it was in history.

also, if the hre empire is never formed, germany kingdom should have the possibility to unify its splitted culture if the kingdom is centralised.

For france, maybe this cultural group should be splitted like italian and germans in earlier periods. Because the modern freanch cultures was born with rise of power of monarchy and the revolution. In earlier 18th lot of french regions had a very strong french patois or dialect. Those dialect should had been stronger in middle age.

 

[TheDovahkiin97]

The province is too big. Trient is italian while the northern region around bozen is completely german.

 

[cptcoco307]

The province is too big. Trient is italian while the northern region around bozen is completely german.

hope a devolopper see my post

 

[Ruwaard]

Trient, at least in SWMH, is not too big; one might argue that about Tirol, but not Trient. As for moving it to Bavaria, it was since 952 and from then onwards the connection with Tirol makes most sense. A workaround solution, just for Trient, for the earliest start date(/dates) could be considered, but IMHO Bavaria and Tirol should remain default.

 

[cptcoco307]

maybe create sout tyrol duchy ? in first start is italy, after is bavaria /austria

 

[theKing1988]

Won't happen, Trent should stay where it is. You are looking back at the situation from a Modern perspective, when you think Culture and Geography should matter. Trent was a part of Tirol, there is not really any way around that. And Tirol was not a part of Italy.

As for regionalising the French and possibly the Occitan culture, well we have consulted quite a bit with our resident Frenchman, Arko, and Arko insists that we would be making a mistake if we did that. So i would defer you to him and his judgement call.

 

[JonStryker]

maybe create sout tyrol duchy ? in first start is italy, after is bavaria /austria

South Tyrol as a political entity did not exist until 1918 ...

 

[cptcoco307]

For france, I am also a frenchman from quebec and i know well history of france also. I don't see why medieval dialects were less strengh than germans dialect. Modern frech langage was born with the centralism of the monarchy. French dialects didn't even understand each other.

According to wiki tryrol was created in 1140, but according to wiki , In the early Middle Ages, Trent was included within the Kingdom of Italy and the March of Verona. In 1027, the Bishopric of Trent was established as a State of the Holy Roman Empire by Emperor Conrad II. It was an ecclesiastical territory, roughly corresponding to the present-day Trentino, governed by the Prince-Bishops of Trento. After that, this bishop was annexed to tyrol.

 

[theKing1988]

They are not there to represent Dialects, they are there to represent the Tribal cultural identities that later developed into modern day German (High and Low-German, that still has some differences to this day). Language =/= Culture.

As for the Bishopric of Trento, we've moved away from having lots of de-jure Bishoprics in our setup. As you can see, we only have the absolutely most important ones in our setup. So no, we won't create a separate Bishopric for a possible one-province in Trento. And it's connection with Verona was weak to put it mildly, before 1027 it was even a Bavarian fief. So that leaves us with keeping it in Tirol. And there it will stay.

If you would like a separate Bishopric or to move the province to Verona, i would suggest that you mod it into your own HIP install.

 

[Admiral Fischer]

Kinda related, why Italy has Carinthia in 867 start?

 

[theKing1988]

Kinda related, why Italy has Carinthia in 867 start?

The setup is imported from Vanilla. Do you have any suggestions on improvements? I'd love to hear them, you've got great suggestions from time to time.

 

[Admiral Fischer]

The setup is imported from Vanilla. Do you have any suggestions on improvements? I'd love to hear them, you've got great suggestions from time to time.

Oh, with my pleasure.

In my personal mod-mod I redistributed Carinthia and Carniola to Gundakar of Carinthia (id 168308) who was appointed to Carinthia before 863 and then went to revolt in 869. But to think about it, Arnulf of Carinthia (id 7945) could work too. Additionally I gave Nordgau (Sulzbach, Leuchtenberg, Hirschberg) to Ernst of Nordgau (id 167812) and slightly adjusted the border, so the region looks like this in my game:

 

[cptcoco307]

close for trent, but for france I think identy deserve a regionalisation for earliest start date.
As german king, french king authority was weak until phillip august and people were more loyal to their lords and regions. See
Albigensian Crusade

 

[JonStryker]

close for trent, but for france I think identy deserve a regionalisation for earliest start date.
As german king, french king authority was weak until phillip august and people were more loyal to their lords and regions. See
Albigensian Crusade

What is German about the French king / southern France in the 13th century?

 

[theKing1988]

What is German about the French king / southern France in the 13th century?

He is arguing for a similar regionalization of the French and possibly the Occitan culture, to our German and Italian setup

 

[Arko]

close for trent, but for france I think identy deserve a regionalisation for earliest start date.
As german king, french king authority was weak until phillip august and people were more loyal to their lords and regions. See
Albigensian Crusade

Taking albigesian crusade as an example, it was a war between frankish lors vs occitan lords not a war between parisian and tolosan lords. Both sides represent some kind of cultural unity.

As @theKing1988 said already, language is different of culture in CK2. Culture main purpose is flavour. Seriously, culture bonus/malus is ridiculous enough gameplay-wise to be ignored.
I wouldn't see it impacting neither unifying or dividing the realm ingame.
As flavour we mean naming and portraits. I hardly see splitting portraits or naming in France further. How would a burgundian noble be named or dressed differently than an angevin or picard ? Same about cultural title naming, cultural troops etc. .

 

[cptcoco307]

hmm, does germans sub group have the same portraits and units ?

 

[Undead Martyr]

For the 867 start date Trent should absolutely be part of de jure Italy. If possible the HRE decision (either of them) could cede it to Tirol, but before that it was an italian province. Ditto Istria.

I'd also like a potential Italian centered HRE/WRE- either something like Carp's Sons of the Harlot Empress or an Italo-Burgundian kingdom. Perhaps require holding continental Sicily as well as Burgundy, or else having created imperial administration/having max crown authority.

At the very least I think France should have a split between Provence and Gascony (or maybe another split culture in the north) at 867, speaking as an outside observer the French culture blob is rather bizarre compared with Italy or Germany for the era. I'd add separate Gascon and Picard/Walloon cultures.

 

[theKing1988]

We will most likely just do a minimalistic title history change for starts after the 950'ies if we move Istria and Trent. We are still on low-activity at the moment, and whatever activity we pull off, is really not going to 867.

Anything WRE won't happen, because it's not timeline appropriate. Italian or English or whatever version of the HRE doesn't seem likely to happen either. It's not a common gameplay occurence and it's doubtful that Ziji wanna use effort on it. The reason why the French HRE happened, is because it's quite a common gameplay occurence.

As for partitioning the French culture or the Occitan culture you need to actually argue for the split on it's own merit and not on the fact that Occitan and French looks too big in comparison to the Italian and the German cultures. Unless you argue for the splits on their own merits, then we are quite frankly not using a single second on the suggestion.

 

[Undead Martyr]

Italian HRE is strictly speaking appropriate insofar as the starting king of Italy, Louis II, was in fact "Emperor of the Romans" at the 867 start. It certainly makes more sense than a nonsensical "English HRE" which 1) I never mentioned, 2) was not ever part of the Empire de jure or de facto (unlike Italy, which owing to the Papacy was essential to the Imperial claim and also was the seat of a ruling Emperor). It's rather odd, from both a historical and immersive perspective, that a ruler of Italy cannot attempt to claim an Imperial title, when the actual rulers of Italy did indeed do so and the various Holy Roman Emperors (be they Carolingian, Ottonian or otherwise) required Italy as part of claiming said empire.

Gascon culture would possibly make sense insofar as Aquitaine seemed to be pulled north as often as south. I'm not sure that the provinces there should be more in common with Iberia than with Anjou, though of course part of that is the way CK2 culture works. I am by no means an expert on the area so I am unwilling to make any strong claims either way.