Treasure Fleets Having to Be Downstream Is Ahistoric. Most Gold/Silver From the New World Ended Up in China

[Talambanian]

Historically speaking it's silly that you can exploit New World gold with a home port in Seville, but not in Venice. Aside from the fact that geographically Venice is just a small further jump from Seville (crossing the Atlantic would be the real hard work), the more important issue is that the vast majority of precious metal mined in the New World was never taken by boat to Seville, but to Manila and then to China.

What your "home trade port" is, should be totally irrelevant to your ability to profit frrom New World silver/gold by selling it off in the Far East which, except very early on, is how it was actually exploited and used to profit from.

Instead of "treasure fleets" which for California and Cascadia are completely ahistoric, and which even for Mexico and Peru were only significant for a limited amount of time, there should instead be an attempt to model the Manila Galleons and the export of New World gold to China at immense profit in Asian goods.

 

[BoomKidneyShot]

That's a symptom of the larger issue coming from the static trade node system.

 

[bestbrian]

I seem to recall (and take this with a grain of salt, because it's been awhile) that EU4 launched with a more dynamic trade system, but that there were difficulties and bugs that resulted in reversion to a static system that has been often tweaked (anybody else remember the West European Node?), but has never met the promise it had on launch.

 

[svalan_i_dalen]

I seem to recall (and take this with a grain of salt, because it's been awhile) that EU4 launched with a more dynamic trade system, but that there were difficulties and bugs that resulted in reversion to a static system that has been often tweaked (anybody else remember the West European Node?), but has never met the promise it had on launch.

What i recall from 2013, the pricing of goods were dynamic but the nodes and routes worked like now. Since the pricing model ate a lot of CPU and did not affect gameplay very much it was cut.

 

[Titanius Puffin]

the more important issue is that the vast majority of precious metal mined in the New World was never taken by boat to Seville, but to Manila and then to China

Yes. The trade system is a simplification.

While silver flowed into China during the 16th century, gold flowed out.

The Spanish valued silver significantly less than gold, but China valued silver quite highly. Spain conducted trade ( esp. European trade) in gold, while China used silver. High-value exchanges were made by Spanish merchants. Spain had little reason to export gold to China however, because it's comparative value there was low.
Silks, Garments, Rugs, Spices, ivory and a lot of other goods were exchanged too (and not just goods from China).

However too much currency is bad for you, and both Europe and China suffered serious inflation during the 16th century thanks to the hunger for precious metals.
It would be nice if all of this could be modelled too - but it's asking a lot.

(edit: actually, China's currency problems seem to have begun later in the 17th century, and is a whole new rabbit-hole issue - deflation)

 

[BoomKidneyShot]

Yes. The trade system is a simplification.

While silver flowed into China during the 16th century, gold flowed out.

The Spanish valued silver significantly less than gold, but China valued silver quite highly. Spain conducted trade ( esp. European trade) in gold, while China used silver. High-value exchanges were made by Spanish merchants. Spain had little reason to export gold to China however, because it's comparative value there was low.
Silks, Garments, Rugs, Spices, ivory and a lot of other goods were exchanged too (and not just goods from China).

However too much currency is bad for you, and both Europe and China suffered serious inflation during the 16th century thanks to the hunger for precious metals.
It would be nice if all of this could be modelled too - but it's asking a lot.

(edit: actually, China's currency problems seem to have begun later in the 17th century, and is a whole new rabbit-hole issue - deflation)

I wonder if you could model this by having a malus to trade effiiciency to nodes based on the amount of upstream trade coming from colonial trade nodes (perhaps just the provinces producing gold). Either that or an inflation modifier.

 

[Stratagyfan101]

I seem to recall (and take this with a grain of salt, because it's been awhile) that EU4 launched with a more dynamic trade system, but that there were difficulties and bugs that resulted in reversion to a static system that has been often tweaked (anybody else remember the West European Node?), but has never met the promise it had on launch.

It was never dynamic on launch. The original idea was for it to be dynamic but the team couldn't get it to work so they settled for this. EUIV had an ambitious design, but much of what was announced during development diaries was altered on the final product.

 

[Titanius Puffin]

I wonder if you could model this by having a malus to trade effiiciency to nodes based on the amount of upstream trade coming from colonial trade nodes (perhaps just the provinces producing gold). Either that or an inflation modifier.

Right now, there is some inflation when treasure fleets arrive. Personally, I would like inflation to be higher and more dangerous. I don't have any trouble managing inflation right now.
Historically, it was a real issue - and has been as recently as the late 1970s.
My understanding is that Spain suffered significantly as it became (culturally/economically) dependent on gold and silver, as opposed to countries forced to rely on trade (in other goods), agriculture and industry.

 

[Talambanian]

So I discovered that actually with a home trade port in Venezia you can normally receive treasure fleets from Mexico. The issue is that my Mexico spawned with a home trade port in the Panama node. Okay, so that makes the situation at a better state than I thought it was in.

However, when I change the CN home trade port to Mexico, it changes right back to Panama. Is that a bug or WAD?

 

[BoomKidneyShot]

So I discovered that actually with a home trade port in Venezia you can normally receive treasure fleets from Mexico. The issue is that my Mexico spawned with a home trade port in the Panama node. Okay, so that makes the situation at a better state than I thought it was in.

However, when I change the CN home trade port to Mexico, it changes right back to Panama. Is that a bug or WAD?

Is their capital in the Panama node? The AI might prefer keeping the trade city together with the capital.

 

[klingonadmiral]

(edit: actually, China's currency problems seem to have begun later in the 17th century, and is a whole new rabbit-hole issue - deflation)

And it began because Spain stopped exporting silver to China. Because they needed any scrap of money they could get to finance their army through the Thirty Years' War.

 

[Talambanian]

Is their capital in the Panama node? The AI might prefer keeping the trade city together with the capital.

Yes the capital is in the Panama mode. Will see if moving both at the same time produces a different result.

 

[RobbieAB]

So I discovered that actually with a home trade port in Venezia you can normally receive treasure fleets from Mexico. The issue is that my Mexico spawned with a home trade port in the Panama node. Okay, so that makes the situation at a better state than I thought it was in.

However, when I change the CN home trade port to Mexico, it changes right back to Panama. Is that a bug or WAD?

Mexico, California, and Rio Grande can all ship their trade value across the Pacific and on to Venice through the Far East and Middle East, so treasure fleets from those three trade zones should reach Venice without problems.

 

[Pbhuh]

The Direction of Trade isn't really based on where a tradegood ends up, but more on where wealth goes.

For example, Most of Trade Flows to the Mediterranean ports of Venice and Genoa as it's the end of the Silk Road.

While The Channel is the End Node as it's the colonial end of trade. Wealth flows to London and Amsterdam, because spices and other goods are sold there, and sent further across Europe.

While it's obviously imperfect and trade should benefit both the buyer and seller (triangle trade). It's an acceptable simplification.