Kane_hun

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Greetings,

I would like to propose some minor changes for the Transylvanian culture:

Historical background (I am no historian, this is mainly my understanding of the subject, using the source below and my previous knowledge about the subject):
After the partition of the Kingdom of Hungary following the Ottoman conquest, the eastern part reformed itself as the Principality of Transylvania (since the crown of St. Stephen was held by the Habsburgs and the Szapolyai branch died out). Their historical ambition was to reestablish the Hungarian Kingdom free from the Habsburg rule. Varying between an Ottoman vassal-state and an independent principality the voivodes in the 16th century would often seek the support of the Habsburg monarch or the Ottoman Sultan should the other threaten their independence. Stephen Báthory (also elected Polish king) had an ambition to drive the Turks out from Hungary proper.

This reorientation brought Transylvanian policy back to the objectives pursued by King John I in 1528–32. If Báthori's plan, devised independently of the Habsburgs, to expel the Ottomans is taken seriously, then it went beyond the earlier version; if, on the other hand, he aimed to avoid any provocation of the Porte while challenging the Habsburgs in Hungary, then the plan was more modest than that of King John. In any event, the most significant feature of Báthori's plan was that it envisaged reunifying Hungary under the shadow of the Porte. This strategic conception would have long life, being subsequently adopted by Gábor Bethlen as well as Imre Thököly. Evidently, Stephen Báthori, voivode and king, continued to pursue a policy that encompassed all of Hungary, and not just Transylvania.

Source: http://mek.niif.hu/03400/03407/html/105.html

Game background:
Most European majors can be reformed by revolters or minors (e. g. Spain, France, England, Poland, Austria, Russia or Rum (basically Ottomans))

Conclusion:

I suggest that tags with Transylvanian and Hungarian as their primary culture should be able to reform Hungary (possibly giving claims on the territories held in 1444 and access to their missions).

Since Transylvania had been populated with Romanians (along with Saxons and Hungarians) I feel they should also be able to form Romania (albeit this was not the historical ambition of the voivodes, since they were the descendants of Hungarian aristocrats, this feels fair).

I hope I did not offend anyone with this post, I just think considering its difficult diplomatic position (should it revolt or be released) we might want to give Transylvania some minor help (similar to Navarra, which has Basque culture and is able to both form France and Spain)
 
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Upvote 0

gougluinn

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Jul 1, 2014
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Stephen Báthory (also elected Polish king) had an ambition to drive the Turks out from Hungary proper.
he was taken prisoner by the turks first then he was released and allowed to be elected as voivode of transilvania which was a vassal of turkish empire. then ottoman emperor, especially the grand visier sokullu mehmet pasa tried to make henry, king of poland in the elections but couldnt succeed due to henry's rule in france just started. after that ottoman emperor encouraged & supported his vassal stephen báthory into polish throne and he was chosen as polish king by the sejm influenced by the ottomans. under his leadership poland made truce with the turks and never fought against them in his rule. instead he attacked russia & livonia. this was also the sultan's will.
 
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Kane_hun

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he was taken prisoner by the turks first then he was released and allowed to be elected as voivode of transilvania which was a vassal of turkish empire. then ottoman emperor, especially the grand visier sokullu mehmet pasa tried to make henry, king of poland in the elections but couldnt succeed due to henry's rule in france just started. after that ottoman emperor encouraged & supported his vassal stephen báthory into polish throne and he was chosen as polish king by the sejm influenced by the ottomans. under his leadership poland made truce with the turks and never fought against them in his rule. instead he attacked russia & livonia. this was also the sultan's will.

Thank you for your feedback.
However, I would argue against your portrayal of Báthory as a puppet of the Ottoman Empire. Firstly Trasylvania was de iure part of the Crown of Hungary, thus the Hungarian king (which was the Austrian HRE emperor) was just as much a suzerain of them as the Ottomans. I would rather portray them as a Great power insering dominance for nominal suzerainty and some taxes rather than a vassal-state (although this can depends on what you view as a vassal and what as an independent state).
After Henry, the Polish upper nobility supported Maximilian while the szlachta, or lower nobility, supported Báthory. It is true that the Ottomans supported him obtaining the throne, this was just one factor, since we must also consider that he was just more succesful in legitimizing his rule by marry Anna Jagiellon and also Maximialian died shortly after this, so he could not contest the throne anymore.
About the Russian war: as others pointed out in other threads, the Polish king couldnt easily rally the nobles as soldiers and had hard time gathering soldiers - Báthory also employed additional Hungarian forces in his army. The war for Livonia was also a reconquest war for the Commonwealth. His ambition was to catholocize the russians and make Muscovy a vassal-state which would also later help against the Ottomans. The Ottoman truce was logical in this sense - he wanted to tonsolidate his his power first and didnt want to fight on two fronts. All these sources indicate that if he had lived longer, he would have launched a crusade against the Ottomans.
Source 1
Source 2
Source 3
 

Kane_hun

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I will have to decide whether Serbia will be formable at some point, and this is the criteria I use for whether a country that exists in 1444 should be formable:
1. It defines the region and the name of the country would be adopted by a regional minor that united the region (England, France, etc)
2. There are minor nation/s or releasables with its culture that should be eligible to form it
3. The country has access to unique content (missions, events, etc) that would make the game more fun for aforementioned minors.

Just wanted to point out that Transylvania here qualifies for all three regarding Hungary. (Since Transylvania was a part of the Hungarian crown, they would surely call themselves the kings of Hungary, should they conquer the former Hungarian lands)
 

Yevardian

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Apr 28, 2018
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Eh... not sure how Romanians would take Wallachia's end-goal becoming 'form Hungary' for many players... imo they shouldn't even be in the same culture group.
If Korea can have it's own group I don't see why Hungary can't, just make Slovak accepted.

On another note, an event for Transylvania would be nice.

I was thinking a Danzig-type event, though perhaps buffing Ottomans too much, would avoid some truly disgusting borders.

Oh, and rename 'Cossacks' for Hungary to 'Szekelys' ;)
 
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Kane_hun

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Eh... not sure how Romanians would take Wallachia's end-goal becoming 'form Hungary' for many players... imo they shouldn't even be in the same culture group.
If Korea can have it's own group I don't see why Hungary can't, just make Slovak accepted.

On another note, an event for Transylvania would be nice.

I was thinking a Danzig-type event, though perhaps buffing Ottomans too much, would avoid some truly disgusting borders.

Oh, and rename 'Cossacks' for Hungary to 'Szekelys' ;)

Wallachia can form various countries like Poland or Russia and even Italy, so why would Hungary be the exemption? If someone doesnt want to form it, they wont.
If Hungarian would be in its own culture group, where would Transylvanian be? If it were with Hungary, then Wallachia and Moldavia wouldnt really want to expand there and form Romania (would they have their own culture group as well?) If it were in the Romanian one, that would mean it has closer ties to the people of Wallachia and Moldavia than to Hungary, which is still not plausible, hence why the mix culture of Transylvanian was created in the first place. Slovak culture has been debated many times, but I would also include a better ethnic border as well with provinces like Komárom if moved to the West Slavic group. (This way the Slovak culture includes the minorities so has ties to the Hungarian group as well.)

Theoretically there are events to simulate the advance of the Turks and the appearing of Transylvania, like Advance of the Turks and Fall of Hungary, however, I myself rarely see these events occuring (Bohemia/Poland usually jumps on the remains of Hungary if they are defeated by the Turks). Better chances for Transylvania are surely needed, but making them and Ottoman vassal would be a bit much (a guarantee could work better as the AI always annexes their vassals when possible, just look at poor Crimea, who even starts as a March).

Regarding the Székelys, I dont think they would be the equivalent to Cossacks, rather the Hajduks would be the better example. Székelys mainly live in certain parts of Transylvania but they werent assigned to various parts of the country. Hajduks, on the other hand were used as irregular military by rulers such as Bocskai and were present on a country-level.
 

Yevardian

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Apr 28, 2018
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I had no idea there were even events for Transylvania... seems they never spawn because Hungary is never independent by that time.
Hungarian AI likes to go HAM on Balkan minors and get PU'd by Austria straight after.

I figure having Transylvanian in Hungary's group and having them as an accepted Romanian culture is fine. That or an enemy changing culture. I mean really, Hungary and Romania have very little in common at all despite centuries of shared rule.
 
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